Heavenly Minded Earthly Good

Anita Wing Lee 00:04
Aren't Christians just as selfish and consumerist as everyone else? One of the things that made me want to keep Christianity away with a 10 foot pole was that I felt Christians in the West were just as selfish and self-centered as everyone else. I walked the streets of East Africa when I was 21.

Anita Wing Lee 00:30
I held bills in my hand that said 1500 Tanzanian shillings. 1500 on this purple crinkled paper, and this was worth 80 cents in Canada. In Tanzania, I could buy a meal off the street for 3000 shillings, which was only $1.60. I could hop on a public bus and get across the city for 400 shillings, which was less than 25 cents. The way I used money in Tanzania, it was always with three digits, or four digits or five digits here. It's 10,000 shillings. I was angry, indignant that in Canada, we had so much money and we weren't content. In Tanzania, I realized that simply because I could speak English well, with a flawless Western accent. I was incredibly blessed. Lucky. Just the fact that I was Canadian, and that I was well-educated. This meant my life was infinitely richer than someone who grew up in poverty in Tanzania, or at least financially rich or even minimum wage in Canada was a fortune more than some people in Tanzania would make in a lifetime. This broke my 21-year-old brain and my heart.

Anita Wing Lee 02:04
Tyndale University presents Heavenly Minded Earthly Good. Deconstruction is the word commonly used for the process of critically dissecting your Christian beliefs.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 02:15
For some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word for backsliding or apostasy or heresy it

Anita Wing Lee 02:23
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human.

Dr. Helen Noh 02:32
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, right? Their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational layers.

Anita Wing Lee 02:40
This podcast follows my personal journey through deconstruction. Along the way, we're going to chat with professors, pastors, psychologists, researchers, historians and artists.

Tara Jean Stevens 02:51
But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to help. We'll explore the

Anita Wing Lee 03:01
questions so many of us have about Christianity, the stuff you probably didn't feel comfortable bringing up on Sunday at youth group or small group. I'm your host and guide for this journey, and Anita Winkley. I couldn't reconcile how rich I felt when I travelled. In Canada, life seemed so consumed by school jobs, money stuff, everyone was in a rush. And as long as I stayed on the road, I felt content. Everything I needed fit into my suitcase. I met people who constantly welcomed me with open arms into their homes, lives and kitchens. As long as I stayed out of regular employment in the Western world, I thought I was charting a different way of life, one that encompass to the world. That's why for years, I was happy to couch surf and do work exchanges and live in different places around the world, exploring different ways that I could create and contribute to society. Now in Canada, working a job, I had to deconstruct the way I thought the world worked. I was practically making minimum wage, but I had never been so grateful for a tiny paycheck. Slowly I began to see the Not all jobs are evil. And I could see that what my 21 year old brain decided wasn't that simple. It wasn't all black or white. I wasn't either and evil, consumerist, white collar greedy Westerner or a hippie green backpacking, nomadic pioneer. My life and my identity didn't fit into these boxes, where one was good and one was evil. As I kept showing up to the church and making friends with people and getting to know the people I worked with, I realized I lacked nuance. The part of me that used to judge people working in an office, it was afraid.

Anita Wing Lee 05:14
And it was also the product of my underdeveloped brain. Science tells us that adolescent brains don't finish developing or maturing until someone's mid to late 20s. The prefrontal cortex is the decision making part of the brain responsible for a child's ability to plan, think about the consequences of their actions, solve problems and control impulses. Apparently, because the prefrontal cortex is still developing, teenagers might rely on the part of the brain called the amygdala to make decisions. And the amygdala is associated with emotions, impulses, aggression, and instinctive behavior.

Anita Wing Lee 05:57
Hmm, that sounds a little like me. No, no.

Anita Wing Lee 06:05
Since girls mature faster than guys, and I was used to being ahead of people. In my early 20s, I thought I had it figured out, which meant that when I started traveling, I had found the better way to live. And I needed to tell other people about it. But now back in Toronto, clearly these 3 million people in Toronto aren't all psychotic, or hypnotized, and living in the matrix. When I drove on those highways to the church, saying to myself, these people are crazy. How do they live like this? And I watched the sunrise over the horizon, shining golden light onto the 1000s of cars on the highway with me. I felt God whispered to me. I know you think they're crazy and Anita, but I love these people. I love all 6 million people live in the Toronto area, including you. I am providing for them. And in the city, there are lives being broken. There are new babies being born, people getting divorced and married. Every single day people fighting and people reconciling people being hurt and people being healed. This is where life is happening. This is where I am to Anita. Not just in the tropical rainforest in Costa Rica, or the snowy peaks of the Himalayas. I am here to now I was caught in the middle of two lives.

Anita Wing Lee 07:44
On one hand, I was an underpaid, educated Westerner. And one voice kept telling me you should be making more money. And on the other side, the part of me that held the purple 1500 Tanzanian shilling Bell and my hands said I don't care about making more. I've got everything I'm so rich already. I just want my life to matter. I don't want to waste it in an office. And in the middle of these two stories was another one bumbling through God, Christianity, Jesus, good news. I had associated Christianity with the kind of people I thought were greedy, selfish and just wanting to make money in the Western world. And I didn't want to be a part of that. Except now I was a part of it. Not by choice. But I no longer looked like a hippie nomad. I wore gray sweaters and bomber jackets to work. Now I was a part of the world that I used to reject. So what does the Christian faith have to say about this? What's the right way for me to live?

Anita Wing Lee 08:56
Cut to October 2022. Hi, this is Anita. I'm sitting in my closet as I record this podcast. I've thought long and hard about whether or not to share the detail I'm about to share. It's because I don't want to spread the idea that God's blessing or provision always shows up quite this extravagantly. In episode seven, I talked about that Zoom call with Jesse Sudirgo, the director of my master's program. There's one huge detail that I didn't mention in that episode. And this detail was a major factor that played into my decision to stay in my masters of divinity program to stay in Toronto and not quit. If I don't mention this detail, I can't really share the rest of my journey. Honestly, it won't make sense. I'd be skimming the surface. But I'm also aware that something like this can send the wrong message back As we live in a society that unfortunately ties money to net worth and self worth. But the truth is, according to the Christian faith, we all have God worth, our God worth should be our primary self worth. So before I share this detail, I want to untangle are thinking around God's generosity and provision. Firstly, God loves and cares for each of us. We are all loved, chosen and adored. Secondly, how God chooses to provide for each of us is ultimately up to him, period. Thirdly, do our prayers, obedience and trust play into his action and how he provides? Absolutely, and I think all the Bible stories show that God lessons that when we pray, obey and trust in Him, but ultimately, God is sovereign. And he's the one who made the call on this one. I say this because I get minimal credit for the series of events I'm about to describe. Even the choices that I have made, I believe were influenced by God, changing me. So here goes.

Anita Wing Lee 11:13
In episode seven, back in the spring of 2020, at the very start of the pandemic, when I had that call with Jesse, and I was deciding whether or not I should go back to my life of travel, I was standing in a house that God had just bought me. As I contemplated going back to my life of travel, God had already picked a home for me. For me, the person who could care less about owning a home, definitely not a home in the Western world. Now I had a house. If you had left it up to me, I'd rather be in a hut on the beach, a cabin in the woods, or a van driving around, not in a house in the suburbs. But obviously, from a typical western perspective, having a house is a really great thing. But for me, it was not. Now I had to deal with a mortgage. But I knew that this was still a gift from God. The house was bought and February 2020, which means that in March 2020, when the pandemic hit, and I came back from Guatemala, I moved straight into this new house. God really has a sense of humor. God was like you want to move? How about here? It was my house on a hill. Just a few steps. From my front door, there was a view of a gorgeous Valley and to forest house on a hill. Just like this Amanda cook song that I've been listening to for months, titled House on Hill. I won't play the song here for copyright reasons. But these are some of the lyrics.

Anita Wing Lee 13:03
Allow me to introduce myself again. I'm the one that knew you before time began. I've been waiting for you to let me be your friend. Everything you ever need is everything. I Am. I Am. I Am. Allow me to introduce myself again. I was with you every place you've ever been. I'm the one that held you when you couldn't stand. If you're wondering who can heal your brokenness? I can. I can. I can. I'll meet you in the house upon the hill. How I want to show you I am real.

Anita Wing Lee 13:54
I won't get into all the details of how this house came about. Because what the House spawned is even more fascinating. God had chosen a place for me. And it was right on time at the cusp of my 30s I started to think deeply about what do I want my life here to look like? If this is where my next chapter is going to be? Then what are the values from my life of travel my 20s that I want to keep? What do I want to leave behind? What does my faith in God mean here? What about that 21 year old girl who knows what it feels like to hold 1500 Tanzanian shillings in her hands and feel like the richest girl in the world? What does it look like to integrate her into a Nita in her 30s in this house? What's the point of this house? Why did God give it to me? With this new space I started to listen to my old dreams, the dreams that had come to me when I was in Europe, Southeast Asia, Africa, Central America.

Anita Wing Lee 15:12
I dreamt of hosting community dinners. Just like when I worked at retreat centers. I love sitting around a table with people from all around the world. I loved hearing different accents and stories of people's lives. Even though I wasn't consciously following God all those years, I sensed that there was something like the presence of God that happens at a communal table where everyone is welcomed. I wanted the house to be a space for connection and friendship. From the day I signed to the papers for the house, I declared, This is God's house. But it was the pandemic, and the whole world was in lockdown. So I started baking banana muffins, and then giving them to people. I gave them to my neighbors using it as an excuse to introduce myself. At first I did it out of this sense of joy, gratitude and purpose that poured out of me whenever I thought about the fact that God had given me a house to live in. And I didn't deserve it. It became a regular rhythm. Every two weeks, I bake muffins on Friday or Saturday, pack them into Ziploc bags, and then give them to whoever I felt inspired to that week. Sometimes it was church people, volunteers, friends, co workers, more neighbors. anyone really. I was surprised. People responded with so much gratitude and delight that I knew it was God. Countless times someone would say to me, Oh, I was so hungry, or your muffins are the best I've ever tasted. Which I don't believe but it must have been Holy Spirit in the muffins. I could see that this tiny gesture of giving people muffins was doing something to people's hearts and mind. This is Sonya Tetley.

Sonya Tetley 17:12
Well, I'm a mom of four kids, and I work full time. So usually I'm pretty busy.

Anita Wing Lee 17:18
She was my neighbor for two years of the pandemic, we lived five houses apart and shared the same backyard. Sonia is also the person that I mentioned in the unpolished part of Episode Three, the person who mentioned that seminary could be a cemetery. We had an instant connection because she had her husband actually attended the school at catch the fire church 20 years ago, and they'd spent 13 years as missionaries in Asia. So we spoke a similar language in terms of church culture, all that stuff about healing and encounter. And we both also had international experience. She could cook Asian food better than me. She and her family were some of the first people who got my muffins. And through her, God showed me that my banana muffins were not random.

Sonya Tetley 18:10
Well, I'm a mom of four kids, and I worked full time. So usually I'm pretty busy. And making meals sometimes is a joy. But sometimes it can be actually a big stress, especially if you've had a busy day at work, and especially during lockdown, because we were trying to work with kids at home. And sometimes it just was like chaos. And I remember there was one time in particular, I was having a really busy day with work, I had a migraine. And it was the end of my workday. I worked a little bit late. And I just thought to myself, What am I going to make for dinner, I'm absolutely exhausted. And then I get this look at my phone. And there's this text review saying don't make dinner, I'm coming over I have something for your family. And that was like one of several times where you would just randomly come by with a random acts of kindness. Sometimes it was, you know, pizza and chicken. Other times it was muffins. But it was always kind of at the right time. It was like you heard the voice of the Holy Spirit.

Anita Wing Lee 19:05
Every time I went and gave Sonya and her family food. I was affirmed that it was exactly what she needed. So I got boulder. I gave her family chickens lasagna and entire meals. Because I knew God was in their life. I knew that they would receive this as a gift from God and not from this weird neighbor. And I kept making and giving away muffins. I had so much fun. I started to track how many muffins I was making on a piece of paper sticky tacked to my bedroom wall. I called it my banana muffin ministry. I looked forward to when the tally would hit 1000 muffins, but I lost count around 700 I started to devour Christian books about generosity.

Anita Wing Lee 19:50
The odd thing was that even in my seminary classes, we kept circling around this idea of hospitality as a Christian practice and that bringing people to a table to eat was actually part of the Christian life. One of the unique things about Jesus was that he welcomed everyone. I couldn't invite people into my house to eat together right now. But these muffins were my way to share food and kindness, and love. Sometimes I'd get tired and be like, Okay, God, I'm going to take a break. But then I'd spend my Sunday morning, making lettering art, listening to sermons about generosity, telling myself, I'm too tired for muffins this weekend. But then I would be overcome with this feeling that I need to give. And so I'd rushed downstairs, make muffins in an hour, pack them up and head off to church with another box of muffins. It became my giving practice, I started to gather different ideas for ways I could give. I put a small amount into a separate account and call that my giving fund actually be a gap a fund, because I read that's what CS Lewis did. He's the author of The Chronicles of Narnia and many other books. And he established a charitable trust, called the Agape fund, where He put all his book earnings. Agape is the Greek word for love. I started with just $25 a month that I'd put in the giving fund, and I'd use it to buy ingredients for muffins. I made it a challenge for myself. Every month, I had to use up the money in the giving fund and do something to give it away. But there was something about the money I put into that account, that always felt different from when I put money in savings. The strange thing was that I was so happy about using up that money.

Anita Wing Lee 21:52
I'd come home with a big pack of bananas and a bag of flour. And I never felt so rich. And then some friends that started giving me ingredients to make muffins like God was already multiplying, like giving. I was fueled by people's reactions, because I could see that when they would receive these muffins. Yes, even during the pandemic. It it was like they held a miracle. Sure, it was a small miracle. But I knew that it was a miracle because it was a miracle that I was even making these and giving them to people. This is how Sonya describes her side of it.

Sonya Tetley 22:31
Well, I remember when we move to our neighborhood, the pandemic hit not long after and I remember my husband, I really had a heart to reach our neighborhood. But we were like, how are we going to reach your neighborhood in the midst of a pandemic. And we saw you you know, one of our first encounters you gave us muffins and we I saw that you would give muffins to neighbor, sometimes it was flour, or sometimes it was sharing something that you had. And you just use that gift to connect with people and not with any ulterior motive not with you know, trying to get them to church or anything like that. You just genuinely love people in the neighborhood. And that was just such an inspiration to actually be neighbors with you. And I remember saying to you on numerous occasions while you have such a gift of hospitality, and you would kind of be like, Oh, really me? No, no, I don't. But I could just see when you did it. And it was led by the Spirit. Like you had so much joy. It was like you were filled with excitement. And almost like a little kid at Christmas time. I could see your face when you come over. And yeah, you were a blessing to other people. And I know that through that God blessed you. So it was really awesome to be a neighbor with you.

Anita Wing Lee 23:38
I do not have the gift of hospitality. At least I didn't before this, which is how I knew that it was God. I look back at my 20 year old self and she was kind of selfish. I was mostly concerned with what I wanted. And now here I was joyously using my money in this tiny but big way to bless people through these muffins. And I overflowed with ideas for how to give more ideas that I couldn't even execute. Sonya told me I had the gift of hospitality so many times that I finally just accepted it. Sure, yes, I'll take it. Because clearly it's a gift from God. And I have so much joy when I'm giving that. Sure I'll keep giving. And God seems to keep supplying me with ideas, ways and ingredients to give.

Sonya Tetley 24:38
So when you first came to the neighborhood, and Anita, we had been there for a little while and you didn't know but we were going through a really hard season. We were heading into transition. And we've been kind of praying about church planting. And we just kind of felt like oh my god, how do we church plant when we don't have solid people around us and we just didn't see that it was a possibility and then You kind of came into this neighborhood shining and bright and somebody that was just such a joy to be around and you brought kind of life to the neighborhood. And I remember, I really believe actually, it's kind of because of you that we actually had the faith to start a church plan. So we've been church planning for a little while. And you were actually the first person to sew an offering to the church. And we were kind of at the point where we were starting it, but hadn't officially kind of launched it or started it. And I remember you came over and you were so gracious about it. And you just said, The Holy Spirit told me to give this to you. And I remember you didn't see. But when we shut the door, both Jordan and I had tears in our eyes, and we were crying, because it just affirmed to us through your generosity, that we were making the right step and that God was leading us in what he was calling us to do. And so you thought maybe you were just sending an offering, or, or being generous. But for us, it was really a huge step in our ministry to step out in faith and affirmation, that God was with us.

Anita Wing Lee 26:01
Sonya and her husband, Jordan, planted a digital church called C365 during the pandemic, and it continues to this day, I hardly remember that first small offering to their church. But of course, it came out of the giving fun. And I gave it just to encourage them. It was funny, because when I gave that gift, I felt God impress on my heart, look and eat up your church planter, was just made me laugh and roll my eyes, because come on, I was the person in my cohort, who was convinced that I will not be an ordinary pastor. And here I was, in my small way, helping people plant churches. The Anita who was intentionally reaching out to neighbors, this Anita who did not even exist a year ago. This was only possible, I believed, because Christ lived in me. And Christ was making me knew there was a new and needed being born. And how is this possible? I was still in the process of figuring out how Jesus fit into my theology. Some people discovered Jesus, and that's their gateway. For me. It was a revelation about God, that hit me in Montenegro. I think God is real. Coincidentally, I ended up in a church that was all about helping people encounter God's transforming presence. And so God started to make sense to me. But Jesus, not so sure yet. seminary was also showing me that there are 1000 ways that you can fracture Christianity. If I say the word Christianity, what comes to mind for you, church, sermons, stained glass, windows, the Bible, or ladies making sandwiches? Well, each of those things I just mentioned, is a 12 week course at Tyndale, with four books to read. And each of those courses still only skims the surface. I mean, there's like 10 courses about church. So the more I studied, the more I could see that going into the deep end of theology. And Christianity was a never ending rabbit hole. I could go down those holes if I wanted. And my classes were making me go down some, but I still wanted one foot in this world. I found myself gravitating towards the idea of Christianity, as a way of life, not a set of beliefs, the way of Jesus, a way of living, and I was looking for a way of living for my 30s for the decade ahead, I wanted a hope for what my life could be like, and not just the hope of I'll get another job make more money travel more like a hope, a real hope. There was something that Kevin Makin's the author and pastor we heard from an episode three said, that kept running through my head.

Kevin Makins 29:05
You know, I think that Christianity is a way of life that is shaped by Christ. And by the way that he taught us to live, which is you know, the way of Christ is, you know, its engagement with the living God. The God who is the God of gods you know, the unknowable God it is it is a trusting relationship with that unknowable God as as father or as, as a creator, as source. The way of Christ is a life of prayer and service you know, and and a spiritual pattern of living a way that reforms our psyches or souls, reshapes our desires so that we want what God wants for us and we enter faithfully in that path. And you know, the way of Christ is the Way of Christ is a constant descent into grace and receiving of grace.

Anita Wing Lee 29:59
We heard Kevin say that in episode three, but there's a little bit more.

Kevin Makins 30:05
I think that Christianity, as the way as the way of Christ and the way of the living God, Christianity must be experienced, it cannot be only discussed, it cannot be understood at the level of knowledge. There's a knowing and a believing side to Christianity, and there's an encountering and a becoming side to Christianity. And until you have started to become Christian, you will only know the theory. And the theory is great. But the theory is not the becoming. And the becoming is what builds the faith. And the becoming is what transforms us. And becoming is what will ultimately I think, pull all of us deeper and deeper into the way of Christ.

Anita Wing Lee 30:52
I was definitely becoming something. For one, I was becoming more content. I really appreciated that God had put me in a house in a smaller city, and the streets were quieter, and the hills were pretty. I was also behaving differently. I felt like I was more gracious understanding. And more and more, I believed that yeah, I was loved by God. And I could see him providing for me, and the most tangible ways. The big, glaring one was the house. But there were lots of little things that happen, even tiny details. But the thing that I was most happy about was that I was becoming more and more generous. I wanted to give everything away. There was this inexplicable joy that just came when I gave. I wanted to give my life away. And then I realized that's what Christianity and Jesus advocated for the way you're following Jesus, is to give your life away. And the more that I let God and the Holy Spirit transform me, the more I felt like I was becoming like Jesus, I was kinder and gracious, more free, less fearful. And a big believer in miracles. I wasn't so angry, I didn't reject people. I wanted more of this Anita. The funny thing is, by the time I decided, Okay, God, I choose you. I choose the life you have given me, I choose to let you in my heart, I choose to let you change me. By the time I really surrendered to God, sometime in 2020, I looked around in my life, and I was already in it. Usually, so the story goes, people find God, and then they decide they want to serve God. So they go to seminary and hopefully get a job at a church. I had done this whole thing backwards. I didn't know if I believed in God, or wanted to follow Jesus. By the time I decided that I wanted God in my life, I was already surrounded by all the external markings on a so called Christian life. I worked in a church. I was already halfway into seminary. So where do I go from here? I'm giving Sonya the final word in this one.

Sonya Tetley 33:29
Yeah, I've really enjoyed when we were living in the same neighborhood, we both kind of went through the pandemic together. And for us as a family, it was kind of challenging because we have six in our family. And we always read the limit where we could never have anyone over to our house. And so I had the privilege of going for walks with you on our lunch break once in a while. And I just absolutely loved their conversations, because inner conversations, you just were so genuine and so real. And you taught me so much about listening and hearing. And, and really I think a lot of times, we're a different generation, right? We're good friends, but we're a decade apart. And you really taught me that I'm older than I thought I was. But you know, I've learned so much from you. And it's been awesome, just to see, you know, when we first started making those walks, some of the comments and discussions that we had, I didn't realize that you were on the journey that you've been on. And as I look back, you know, sometimes some of my comments, I you know, I went into the pastoral mode where, you know, I started to preach Theology at you and say, Well, you got to think this way. And I realized, as I look back that you were so gracious to me in the midst of your journey, that you didn't fault me for the times where I was being insensitive, and I just so appreciate seeing how God has worked grace through you and just seeing how you've grown spiritually and seeing how God has opened doors for you and did amazing things through this journey.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 34:56
Well, hello, and welcome to the unpolished part of the podcast. So where I take issue with the fact that Anita pointed out that women mature faster than men,

Anita Wing Lee 35:06
But apparently it only works to a certain age, I think that's what was humbling. Realizing that even if you're female and you mature faster, clearly doesn't mean you can I can leapfrog a couple of decades.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 35:19
That's true. And I love the title, this episode. And this one was chock full of I don't know if you did this intentionally or if it's just somebody figured out. But this was chock full of biblical imagery. And, of course, the title the house on the hill. And I think you got into this. And so I kind of want you to unpack a little bit more what I love about the picture of the house on the hill, because of course, this is this is something that Jesus uses. This is imagery to house on the hill,

Anita Wing Lee 35:40
I'm actually just realizing the Jesus imagery right now the whole time. For me, it was that song house on a hill, because I'd been listening to it for months.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 35:49
But I think it's important. And what's amazing about this is you actually this episode really unpack something, the idea of a house on a hill is not because it gives you know the homeowner beautiful views and stuff like that. That's definitely our world now. But if we go back to Jesus time, a house on a hill, being on a hill is is an elevated position is your mind blown by that wonderful observation. But of course, in that day and age where things are a lot more dangerous. Being up on a hill gives you a vantage point not to just sit back with your coffee and look at you know, this beautiful view, but to see potential enemies. But even more and more important to that is a house on a hill, like when you're in a house, you have the candles lit or whatever, there's light. And for people traveling especially to the sunset, they could see your home, they could see the light on the hill and realize, okay, there is a structure there there is there is safety there. And so when Jesus is talking about his house on the hill, we have to remember that it's not about a blessing for the homeowner. It's about the homeowner being blessed, and the home is actually there. For those outside of it. It is a place to be of safety of refuge for those wandering and or trapped in the dark. And as I was listening to this episode was like, listen to that. So that that idea of hospitality. Again, because we're in a much safer, relatively speaking point in history. Hospitality is sort of almost one of those like, almost we can dismiss it as a Christian virtue. And that's why I want you to unpack this a little bit more. But hospitality at the time of Jesus was literally saved somebody's life. It's where we get the word hospital from, you're literally saving someone's life. Because if you turn them away, and send them out into the dark they are their lives are in jeopardy in ways that I don't think we understand so much nowadays. So because your reticence to embrace hospitality is your own virtue, have you come around to a different way of understanding it? As you've started, listen to this episode.

Anita Wing Lee 37:44
Now, I just totally accept that I have the gift. Because I see people who genuinely have it and they were like this naturally. For me, it grew out of nothing, right? Like I've spent so much of my life now I would, I can say self centered and really just caring about myself. But one of the things with the house is it really came with this sense of I don't deserve this. And if I don't deserve this, then why did God give it to me? Because I I know people who are more obedient more faithful, during the years that I spent prancing around the world, you know, taking cool Instagram photos, they were actually trying to obey God and serve the poor and, and do good, like a different kind of good in the world. And so when this happened to me, a part of me was just like, I don't deserve this, like, What is this for. And that's why it brought me right back to the part of me that knows what it's like to be so rich, to have to have little but then to experience other people's generosity. And so I always had this sense, even when I was traveling, and not necessarily listening to God, I just had the sense that I want this to be a part of my life. I want generosity and hospitality to be a part of my life. I want to be a part of the cycle of people who spread kindness. And because there was something that happened to me when other people welcomed me into their homes, it actually healed me in different ways. Because when I I didn't feel like I belonged any in any Christian circles anymore. I didn't feel like I belonged to my family. And so it was traveling having strangers and new friends welcomed me in that I was like, oh, okay, like I'm loved. And a home is such like a space to rest your head. Again, it's easy for us to take a grant take it for granted if we've had that all our all our lives. But as soon as you don't have that you realize just how nice it is to like sleep and warm sheets. And I never want to forget what a blessing it is to have the lives that we have here in North America.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 39:38
Alright, we've got about two minutes left on this so I liked the beginning of this episode cuz he did reference the sort of like the corruption, the etcetera, etcetera, the greed of Western Christianity, whatnot. And what struck me is that Western Christians are just people. And as we're sort of winding down this first season, I mean, that's the other sort of piece of this is we kind of get this idea that you And I mean, right? I'm not saying this is wrong, that they should be better. And yeah, you know what that's at the heart of the gospel is we're incapable of being better. The problem is course, with the arrogance that comes along with that when Christians aren't humble enough to be like, you know, we're not that different from our non Christian or other religious neighbors, like we're just people living in this part of the world, having this collection of experiences. And so we're on one hand, I really liked that we critique people, and that Christians should be held to a higher standard of generosity, kindness, Grace. And it's so clear when we fall short of that, I think, how this episode began, and then how you sort of wrapped it up the end with again, another great biblical imagery, this idea that I'm losing my life, and in doing it, I find it. I don't really have a question on this. But I do want to encourage those that are listening and just sort of get your reflections as we wind this down in the last like 30 seconds, is this idea of giving up our ideas of ourselves, one accepting that our experiences just because we're Christian aren't gonna be that different from our non Christian neighbors, and there's nothing that undermines the faith in that it's just we're using we're Christ is helping us to see things perhaps perhaps in a different way. But also this idea of what does it mean, to lose your life, and in that, actually find it another purpose, really, Jesus focused teaching. So again, 36 seconds left, hit us with the truth.

Anita Wing Lee 41:26
For me, I realized that like the younger part of myself, I think a lot like most of us in the West, there's a part of us that wants to make the world better, right. And that was what actually drove me partly drove me to travel because I was like, the way that people are living in cities is not working. So let me go find a better way and then tell people about this better way. And what I realized as I walked through my M div, and just through my life back in Toronto, is that if I actually want to change the world, I am the one that needs to change times up, but I gotta finish this thought. I'm the one that needs to change. And I realized the only hope that I really have for changing is actually to let God change me. And it was this huge revelation of like, if I die to what I think I want, what fills the spaces, is Christ alive in me. And the way I had proof that this seemed to be happening was this like, this whole element of hospitality in this house, literally a whole new life that was springing up a whole new and Anita like the way I was spending my weekends, my time Monday to Friday, Saturday and Sunday, all of that was different. And so I just realized, if I really want to help save the world, or help God, save the world, if I can even say that I actually just need to die and I need to let him take over because whoever and Anita becomes is when God is taking over is better than the one that I tried to create all those years, like trying to be an entrepreneur, a creator, reading all the self help books like that only got me so far, but this the changes that I was experiencing, it was almost like meeting a new friend. I mean, like this person is so like, it's so good. She's she's good on the inside, and she behaves differently and she's more kind hearted and realizing like that's who God is creating in me.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 43:12
It's almost as if you were born again.

Anita Wing Lee 43:20
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