Heavenly Minded Earthly Good

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 00:00
In this special episode of heavenly minded earthly good, we discuss grief, trauma, self harm sex and sexual identity. Listener discretion is advised.

Tara Jean Stevens 00:15
Yeah, I saw that question when you guys submitted the things in me I had an immediate gut reaction and that is go further.

Anita Wing Lee 00:23
In the early stages of envisioning this podcast, Dr. James Tyler Robertson and I interviewed Tara Jean Stevens, the host of the podcast, Heaven Bent.

Tara Jean Stevens 00:34
I'm Tara Jean Stevens, host and creator of Heaven Bent, an examination of divine intervention.

Anita Wing Lee 00:40
We wanted to talk to someone who is open and transparent about their spiritual journey, even as they were figuring it out.

Tara Jean Stevens 00:48
I had to go through really serious therapy in order to be able to create this podcast at all.

Anita Wing Lee 00:57
Her podcast Heaven Bent shot to the top of iTunes trending list when it first came out in 2020. And it's easy to see why. It asks bold questions and dares to answer them. It's investigative, yet non judgmental.

Tara Jean Stevens 01:14
I think if I understood that in more of a philosophical way that maybe I would still lean on the church and be involved in a church community.

Anita Wing Lee 01:21
Our interview with Tara Jean Stevens was so mind blowing that we decided to include it here in its entirety, with just a few minor edits for length and brevity.

Anita Wing Lee 01:34
Tyndale University presents Heavenly Minded Earthly Good. Deconstruction is the word commonly used for the process of critically dissecting your Christian beliefs.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 01:45
For some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word of backsliding or apostasy or heresy it

Anita Wing Lee 01:53
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human.

Dr. Helen Noh 02:01
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational layers.

Anita Wing Lee 02:10
This podcast follows my personal journey through deconstruction. Along the way, we're going to chat with professors, pastors, psychologists, researchers, historians and artists.

Tara Jean Stevens 02:22
But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to hell.

Anita Wing Lee 02:30
We'll explore the questions so many of us have about Christianity, the stuff you probably didn't feel comfortable bringing up on Sunday at youth group or small group. I'm your host and guide for this journey, and Anita Wing Lee.

Anita Wing Lee 02:48
As a teen Tara Jean had doubts about the so called supernatural activity in her childhood church. It took years for her to separate fact from fiction. Today as a mother, a radio host and podcaster, she considers herself someone who lives free from religion and helps others navigate their own faith journey. In the first season of Heaven bend, Tara Jean Stevens dove into the strange behavior of worshippers and the Toronto Blessing movement. In season two, she questioned at the teachings of Bethel Church in Redding, California. And in season three, she's looking at the Pentecostal spirit of revival in Nashville, Tennessee. Also, I promise, the fact that both of our podcasts have the word heaven in the title and both of our podcast covers are yellow is entirely accidental. Dr. Robertson came up with the title and we decided on the yellow separately. With all that said, here's our interview with Tara Jean Stephens.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 03:48
Walk me, can you walk us through like your own process of deconstructing what I probably confessed that experience this unbelievable cultural pressure to stay in? So you said you're about 18? Or 19? So was it were you sort of had your first freedom? But yeah, what, what kind of got you going?

Tara Jean Stevens 04:04
I would say that the first sort of baby step was not going to church every Sunday, and then not going to youth group anymore, not being on the worship team anymore. And the and that happened, actually, when I was 16. And that's that was purely based on the fact that I was going to start having sex with my boyfriend. And I was he was in the church as well. And I was under the impression that people in the church were going to be able to look at me and know that I'd lost my virginity. And that, to me, was so shameful, and so scary, because I still had the whole structure, the whole framework of Christianity, I still believe that was not about not believing. I was just so in love or the hormonal, so exploring my body that I there was nothing that was going to stop me from doing that. And so that was the gateway basically once and I was in the Christian school too. So I mean, even though I stopped going to church and youth group, I was still in the, in the, in the church warehouse going to school five days a week. So there was definitely conversations in the hallways, hey, where are you? How come you're not coming back. But you know, I think at that point, like I was one foot in one foot out.

Tara Jean Stevens 05:21
But when I shifted into high school, which was just for public school, high school in grade 11, and 12, I begged my parents because I wanted to be more involved in a drama program, which my small Christian school just didn't have. So they wanted to support my ambition that way. So they let me go to the public school. And then again, these little tip toes of my I didn't know the word deconstruction back then. But that is what I was doing. One of them happened in science class and biology, when I started to learn about evolution instead of Christianity. And even though when I was in grade 12, I literally would put up and fight the teacher about the scientific stuff that he was teaching me. And I look back on that I'm very embarrassed about it. Like, cuz he, everyone was looking at me, like this weirdo girl that just came from the weird Christian school. And she, I just could not even grasp the idea of evolution. And that was because I mean, I had literally been taught that the world was formed. In seven days, everything was very, very literal. And when it came to evolution, or let's say, the dinosaurs or fossils, I remember when I asked my dad about it, my dad said, well, actually, what's happening there is the devil's minions are planting these thing called fossils all around the world. It's like an underground group of people that are working to get kids like you to think that evolution is real. So that's the kind of stuff that I was fighting back against when I was in high school.

Tara Jean Stevens 06:55
But the big, big divide really came in college. When I took religious history. Class, I took a mythology class I learned about I mean, mythology was big for me, because I learned that there were myths like Jesus and the cross and Mary that came 1000s of years before and it was those were those were still cracks. So honestly, those are still cracks, because what really was holding my faith together until I was well into my 20s was the gold teeth story.

Anita Wing Lee 07:29
Can you give us a quick rundown of what what do you mean by the gold teeth story?

Tara Jean Stevens 07:34
Sure. So after after college, I wouldn't call myself a Christian anymore at that point. But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to hell. So there was that sort of hanging over me. And the reason why I couldn't cut it off altogether was because of this memory that I had, in my memory bank of being in church when I was about I think I'd gone back to back to Prince Rupert and my mom was like, please come come to church with me. And on this particular day, a group of adults had just returned from a session of revival services in Toronto at the Toronto Airport, vineyard church, or whatever happened to be called that year. And when they came back, they said that gold dust had fallen from the sky and was all over their bodies and that God had given some of them gold teeth. And we all got in the lineup after the service. And she opened my friends, mom opened up her mouth so that we could all peer inside and see these gold teeth. And she did have a gold molar in her mouth. So I was walking around in my 20s, partying, not a Christian live in this new life of freedom and feeling you know, free about my body and getting to know people from the, you know, the gay community and realizing that everything I've been taught about gay people was wrong, and just feeling really invigorated and enlightened. But this nagging thought was, well, if that gold tooth was real, though, then maybe the rest of it is real, and I'm wrong and going to hell. And that's why I started my podcast, I wanted to find out what was behind that gold tooth story.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 09:11
So that's really, I mean, that's a good segue. So that's really at the backdrop of the whole podcast. I know your reference. I just wasn't sure how much just the idea that one lingering thing like Oh, my goodness, yeah, cuz I guess if we're raised in that sort of Pascal's Wager, like it's better to if you're gonna gamble on something, it's better to gamble that Christianity is true than false. Because obviously, you know, exactly, yeah. Until until, you know, you develop a bit of a deeper understanding what experience in life actually is. And fear base is never good for anything. So that really is what sort of that hung you up at the end day. Like you're just that's the last sort of tangential string. Yeah. So do you think like now that you sort of, you've done the podcast, you've had some investigation, you're grown now. If you've had some distance with and stuff like that? Is the goal to still haunting you or do you think you've sort of put that to rest.

Tara Jean Stevens 10:02
I mean, I like to believe that there is the possibility for miracles and supernatural things in this world. But nothing in my investigation made me go back to think that the gold teeth stuff was something supernatural. And that's because every example that I investigated had dentist records that would discount it. But I think what was so beautiful for me, that I learned during season one, and then I'm continuing to learn is, maybe the gold teeth wasn't real, but that that experience for people was really powerful in their life, that that story is meaningful for them, that they had some sort of healing that could have happened from believing that. And that's where I am today where I have to go, what is good about the church, if I don't believe it anymore, why I still got friends in the church. They're not dumb. They're not stupid, they're not wasting their life. So I'm still desperate to sort of find what is real and true and honest about our supernatural experiences, but also our our beliefs too. But my podcast, really I don't, I try my very best not to get into Is God real? Is God not real? Like that's just a conversation for another place. And I consider myself agnostic. So I just believe there's something going on that I haven't heard a proper explanation for yet. But it's definitely still a journey for me.

Anita Wing Lee 11:48
You said, a really important concept which, which is actually the underside of deconstructing, of people who deconstruction, which is like the trauma of Church and the trauma of like being Christian. And like in church, people won't use that word. But there really is something to that. So how would you say that you've dealt with, or processed some of that trauma, from your experiences in Christianity and in the church?

Tara Jean Stevens 12:14
Well, I mean, trauma comes up a lot, especially in season two. And in the future seasons of Heaven bent that I'm that I'm working on, I find that the further I get away from my own experience, the Toronto Blessing, and maybe even a Canadian Christian experience, the more I dabble in things across the border, the trauma is becoming more intense for the people that I'm talking with. So it's sometimes makes me think, Who am I to be talking about trauma, like my truck, like, my trauma doesn't matter as much as yours. So I should just be quiet. But I had to go through really serious therapy in order to be able to create this podcast at all. And I mean, one of the traumatic experiences that that I, I think I've shared several times, or I have at least thought about sharing it and then deleted it. But when I was in Christian camp up in Prince Rupert, like in the, in the Pacific Northwest, outside of terrorists, there was this Pentecostal Christian camp that I would go to.

Tara Jean Stevens 13:18
And there was this one year where it was a teen camp. And they made a decision to show us all this video. I think it was called the Gay Agenda. But it might have just been about the Gay Agenda and was called something else. But in this video, that it was so traumatizing, they showed graphic images of gay sex. They taught us like, like really graphic images, lots of the most the most graphic Pride Parade stuff you can imagine of people. And it was all being I mean, now, I might look at that and go look at that guy having a good rainbow time. But back then, I mean, it was so shocking to all of us. And it was basically teaching us how evil the gay community was. And I remember really taking that to heart and being felt very self righteous about it, I'm very straight, I'd have never had gay feelings. So I can't imagine what it was like for people in that room, who were struggling with their I mean, that to me, even though that wasn't me, for some reason. It's like I take responsibility for it or something.

Tara Jean Stevens 14:20
And so part of my podcast really has been to create a space for people who have been severely traumatized by the anti gay sentiments in the church to have a safe space to talk about their stories and their healing. But that particular movie haunted me for so long. And I mean, it got to a point where I shared about that on social media and got some apologies from leaders at the time who saw my post, we should have never shown that to you. You know, behind the scenes, you need to know that the leaders were arguing about whether or not to show it. It wasn't that everyone just thought it was okay. And that meant a lot to me to get an apology. from, from the leaders that that did it really, it really did help me and it and it created more of a dialogue for me with my with my psychologist that I was able to continue to figure out how to heal and forgive steam that kind of stuff. I was like 12. Give me a break. It's gross

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 15:20
Wait, do you find that there is? So there's gonna be kind of a twofold question. So one because you did mention, we're looking at stuff like south of the border. And obviously evangelicalism has become this political force, very divisive, very problematic. Do you see? Do you see the like the space? What I like about the podcast, when I've said to everybody I've recommended it to is like, it is what I say in the book, too. Like, it's it's funny. It's sympathetic. It's fair. It's factual. Do you see like, do you think Canada has and I don't want us to be overly jingoistic? Or like, yeah, Canada. Is there more room in Canada for somebody to be like, This is really cool. Good for you. It's definitely what my research found good for you. Not my thing. But it doesn't seem to be quite the antagonistic thing.

Tara Jean Stevens 16:04
Yeah. Well, I mean, when I was doing the research for season one, it was purely Canada based it was Toronto based. It was British Columbia base, the interior, the people that I had met, and, and interviewing numerous people who are involved in it. And it felt to me in comparison to season two, which explored the Toronto Blessing and the way the revival spread to Bethel Church in Redding, California. It just when I compare the two seasons, Toronto seems so innocent, it seems like just, I know that I want to acknowledge that beneath it, there are obviously people in the Toronto Blessing who had traumatic experiences, I don't want to cut those away. But for the most part, it was like, just good people hoping for something good and believing in miracles and magic and really wanting the best for it, you know, like I couldn't, I talked to so many people, I didn't find one person who wanted to say a bad thing about the leadership there, me, you know, but like massive, like, the top level leadership. And that, that put me at peace a little bit, you know, like, maybe I don't agree with you, but your intentions were good, right? It comes back to intentions. And now when I look back on season two, which which took me to reading and to Bethel, it does get very political. The trauma is more extreme. The cult accusations are more. I mean, I don't even know. I think sometimes when I was working on Season One, people would be like, Oh, it's a cult, right? You were in a cult I'm like, I don't think it was called. I just feel like it was a spiritual movement that was really extravagant. And it just really, really crazy within the church, right?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 18:00
that is powerful, to your comments about trauma, and I'll just say this from my own, and my trauma, I'd say is even less like that. That video thing is that sounds horrific. Do you find there's a lot of guilt and shame, especially around the sexing? That it's that's a lot of unpacking even to our adult years?

Tara Jean Stevens 18:14
Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, that's something that's been reflected in so many of the interviews that I've done, and some of the work I'm doing on future seasons purity culture, is coming up a lot, those commitments that we made as teenagers to stay pure and holy and keep our bodies, you know, to ourselves and for our husbands. That I mean, I personally was able to throw that off pretty quickly. I don't know what it is about me. Maybe I'm just a bit more West Coast hippie dippie. And my parents never it was I never heard that from my parents. It was always just from leaders in the church. So I was maybe able to separate it a little bit. But I don't know. It's like the people that I talked to that really struggle with it the most are the people who were those springs, you know, or gotten actually signed a document, a physical document that haunts them in their dresser drawer where they made this commitment. That's that stuff is definitely real. I think in regards to like, maybe being I think it went backwards for me because when I was in the Christian school, we wore uniforms and the girls were required to wear skirts when you were standing they had to go six inches below your knee. And that was because and they literally said this. If you show a boy your knees, you are opening him up to sinful sexual thoughts. And I think some people have gone down a path with some women have gone down a path or some girls went down a path with that, where I don't know it's different than me. I feel like that empowered me almost it made me feel like my body was powerful. And so when I got rid of the sin part, I think I've still carried that into life that I can use my body to control people or not in a bad way. I mean, that sounds weird, but that, that viewing my body can be empowering for me.

Anita Wing Lee 20:15
So what would you say to somebody who's in the middle of deconstructing their faith right now?

Tara Jean Stevens 20:23
Yeah, I saw that question when you guys submitted the things, and I mean, I had an immediate gut reaction. And that is, go further. Keep going, keep asking questions, take classes, read books, talk to people of different religious beliefs. That to me has, I love research and talking to people, obviously. So it's been a great comfort to me to learn that I'm not alone. That there are other because we were raised so fundamental, and that, you know, that say there's like five facts of life. And these are the only things and everything else is wrong. And the Bible is 100%, right, and there's no fault in it. And once you start to open up your mind to the fact that there could be other answers to these big questions, it's so beautiful. It's so beautiful and freeing and so exciting. I just Yeah, I would just, I would just encourage people to go further and to know that you're not alone, because the number of people that I hear from on a weekly basis, I'm not even in a season launch period of my podcast anymore. And every week I hear from someone that's like, I totally thought I was alone in these feelings, which seems shocking. But if you're from a Christian church, and that is something that is scary to talk about, and everyone around you, as a Christian, you may never mention that you're struggling, you may just be looking on the internet and reading weird blogs or something. But there is a large community of people in North America, especially right now, who are finding ways to connect through podcasts, through blogs, through movies. And together we're finding that we I mean, now we've got this whole new community that the church is looking at as like, you know, some evil group or people that they maybe need to bring back or something. But to find a new community has been really powerful for me, because that is the number one thing that I miss about the church.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 22:22
Oh, my gosh, that's, it's been so fascinating, all your interviews, the ways in which community has come up and what I would argue because a lot of the conversations I get into his course people are like, people aren't coming back to church. There's, they're, they've been having so much fun doing it from their living room, you know, listening to it online. And so like a bunch of the younger people. Now, again, I've got a couple of like, my, my church skews north of 75. So community and they're all farmers I love. It's like a whole community of grandparents. It's great. It is it is so good. And they are so they are so real. And my favorite is we had these 220 Somethings from Toronto campus. There's a camp out here, there's Baptist camp out here. So they were there for training. And so they were told to come to our like, here's some Baptist churches, so you don't have to go way back to Toronto. And they came, and our churches all discussion based because it's small. And they came there on the Sunday. We're like, Is Jesus really the only way to heaven? And what does that mean? So we're having this, I'm having this great discussion. We're all having coffee and food and stuff like that. And he's got this guy, George, who's 81 is like, like, I don't know much about George stoves, my favorite line about Christians and a gay agenda ever. He's like, Listen, I don't care. I don't think God cares who you love. He's like, I'm just not a big fan of parades. Like, hands down my favorite answer. He's like, I don't care about being gay. I just don't like parades. But he's there. And he's like, like, he's like, I gotta figure. There's places in the world. But no one's even heard the name Jesus. He's like, I can't see God, get me on a technicality. And then these 20 Somethings are sitting there correcting, and they get into this debate back and forth. One. It's just a beautiful 21 year old arrogance. It's so frustrating. It's like you understand that this guy has been a Christian for eight decades, maybe just have a little bit of respect, that he's learned some things that you have yet to learn. But I love the idea that you know, you have a country Baptist, 81 year old and a city we're 2 1 year old, which one you think is going to be more conservative, which one's gonna be more liberal? And it turns out, it's the 81 year old Baptist. It's so good.

Tara Jean Stevens 24:21
But we've kind of touched there too on that, you know, like that 21 year old sort of like, I remember feeling this way. And I see it on the faces of young Christians that I see the fundamental Christians that I see evangelicals. It's this. They don't mean it because but it's arrogance. It's arrogance that they have found the actual answers to all the things of life. And they just, if you would just listen to me, I could tell you like how empowering that is, as a young person to think that you found the answer. You need to know more people in the world to realize that there's so many other possibilities. spent?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 25:00
No and I love this that because you're you. So you created a community. And I mean, that's this is a theme that just keeps poppin g up over and over again is how I think we can all experience that I mean Anita is she works to catch the fire. So or work for? I don't even know worked. Is that fair to say Anita? Yeah, so she she's been joined the podcast is sort of learning like the legacy of, or the origin stories where she she was working

Tara Jean Stevens 25:24
You must know some of the people that were on there maybe or was that before your day?

Anita Wing Lee 25:27
Yeah, I have to tell you. Um, so my team worked on Revival 25. So it was actually I don't take any of this. Personally, I just like ended up with this job at Catch The Fire. I knew nothing about Toronto Blessing

Tara Jean Stevens 25:39
I had a great time.

Anita Wing Lee 25:41
I was like, Oh, this is an interesting church. So I'm like neutral about all of it. Like, I can definitely see its gifts. And I can see its weirdness. And I see its legacy. So it was really cool. Act ually, I like I'm very much on the other side, because you know, we built the brand. I was there in the building, we were in the same building. So it like, we love the podcast.

Tara Jean Stevens 26:04
Oh, that's great. That's great.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 26:06
Do you see this? And you sort of addresses a bit you see like this, one of the important roles of deconstructing is to find alternate communities, maybe not necessarily ultimate recipient of information?

Tara Jean Stevens 26:20
No, no, I don't, I don't think it's essential to deconstructing, I think it's like, it's like, I think some some, many of my guests are ahead of me. And in finding new communities, especially I think it's especially easier for people who are from the LGBTQ community, those are built in and waiting with open arms, communities that you can lean on and get support and find resources and people who are like you, I think it's just speaking for myself, it's just been very difficult. Let's say, as a mother, I have two children. And I'm raising them without any kind of religious or religious beliefs. I do infuse them as often as I can with, you know, the sentiments I bring to, you know, in heaven bent, which is I believe that there's just a great mystery in this world about why there's anything, and that it's really magical to try to figure it out and watch for signs in the world that maybe the universe is trying to tell you something and all that kind of stuff. But I feel like am I failing them as a mom by not giving them more concrete? I mean, I'd be lying if I tried to present them with a religion and say, Okay, this is the one give this a try.

Tara Jean Stevens 27:37
But there are so many benefits outside of even community to religious beliefs and churches, and I'm like, am I failing them of these two kids don't have that. I mean, our church is hockey. So we go to the hockey rink, like my family used to go to church. My husband is a very staunch atheist. So he has no I kind of have to lean on him when it comes to that kind of stuff. My my psychologist who really helped me deal with some of the trauma from the church and the anger at the church. She told me that she felt it was too triggering for me to talk about religion, and that I shouldn't talk about my, my religion or experiences with my kids until they're older, because she was worried that I would not traumatize them, but give them a sort of, like, unnecessary impression of what that world is like. I feel like now I've come a lot that was a few years ago, I feel now I've come far enough where I can talk more candidly with them. And they saw me sitting on the kitchen table. They've seen me sitting there for years now making these podcasts. And every once in a while, they'll say, What are you editing? Who did you just talk to? And I've been able to be more honest with them now. So I think that when they get a little older into their teen years, I think maybe they'll have questions for me. And that's when I'll talk about it. But it's something I worry about, am I not giving them a full life? Is there an aspect that I've withheld from them because of my own experiences?

Anita Wing Lee 29:15
I'd love to hear your thoughts on in general, you can say whatever you want. What's your take on the Christian faith now? You know, how close or how far away how cold or how hot? What's your take on it now?

Tara Jean Stevens 29:30
I mean, comes back to like, it's just not real to me the the Christian faith anymore. I believe that Jesus was probably a real person. I believe he was probably a revolutionary. I think he was probably a really exciting man, that inspired people. But I don't think he turned water to wine. I don't think that he got raised from the dead. I think it's possible he wound up on a cross. I don't know like historically they did. They did do that. I guess But there's, there's, I think it was because I was taught that it was so fundamental that this is everything is right. Once I found fault in it, it all just fell apart like it. And I feel like sometimes like, that's my fault, but it's not my fault. That's how it was presented to me like if it wasn't if I had been presented with this idea that, that that human beings really require a need like spiritual community and thinking, you know that I understood the concept maybe when I was younger that we are purpose built as human beings to want to think about something outside of ourselves that is greater.

Tara Jean Stevens 30:44
I think if I understood that in more of a philosophical way that maybe I would still lean on the church and be involved in a church community and be able to hear the teachings of Jesus and incorporate them into my life the way that some Christians do. Some of my friends do. But I you know, I have friends that are hardcore Christians, but not in the way that I was raised. And they didn't really understand why couldn't just come to church on a Sunday. Why can't we take your daughter to church on Sunday? What's the big deal? Like she's just gonna learn some Sunday? I'm like she's going to church. You're not sending a bus here. Don't you dare you know. I had to talk to my mom, who's a Christian and say. When when my kids were quite little, I said to her, this is a really uncomfortable conversation for me. But absolutely, are you not to minister to my children? You are not to take them to church, you are not to read Bible stories to them. I absolutely cut it off. And she just said, I respect you. Okay, fine. And she never has she's never peeped a word about it. But that was definitely during when I was when I had little kids. Like, I was still dealing with a lot of anger. I don't have that anger anymore. I think I'm more curious than anything.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 31:56
Do you find? Did you see? Do you feel a freedom in this deconstruction process?

Tara Jean Stevens 32:01
100% 100%. I mean, I've mentioned several times just the anger that I went through. And it was like, at first it was not freedom. It was anger. It was anger that I had spent so much of my youth, what I feel, at the time wasted, of focusing on things, you know, like, I almost went to a Bible school, what if I gone to a Bible school, instead of that secular college I went to, I mean, could be a completely different path. I could be married to a youth pastor with a Christian podcast, right? You know, and we could be talking about something completely different right now like this. There's this whole other world, right? And, but once I got once I got therapy, like, it took a couple years of serious therapy, then the anger went away. And then the freedom came, then the curiosity came, then came the ability to do interviews with Christians for heaven been and connect with them Heart to Heart somehow, somehow I I can still find fellowship with Christians. And the fact that any Christians are interested in talking to me is very, I don't know, it makes me very emotional, because it makes me feel like maybe I'm not such a reject that I'm not evil, that I'm not bad in some way, or they're not angry at me.

Tara Jean Stevens 33:23
I mean, remind me again, who's the lead pastor at in Toronto? Now? What's his name again?

Anita Wing Lee 33:29
Steve Long

Tara Jean Stevens 33:31
Yeah, so Steve actually wrote me when I was launching season one. And I had released at that point, he emailed me, I think I'd released two episodes. And when I saw his name come up in my email, I remember I was like, oh, no, oh, no, he's gonna be angry, he's gonna be so mad, he's gonna be so mad. And he was so gracious with me and just said that he was enjoying listening, and that he wanted to just thank me for not making fun of them. And I was and I just, it was a, I didn't hear from them much after that. So I don't know how he felt about the rest of the of the season. But that for me was just like, it gives gave me a little bit of peace, that somebody who represented that movement now professionally, in that church like that he that he was like, It's okay, that you're okay, that you're doing this, like, I'm not sitting back here getting my lawyers together, trying to like stop you, you know, whereas, you know, south of the border, Bethel, and I'm working on a season on the International House of Prayer in Kansas City. There's some legal stuff that's coming up. So I have to I have to be even more careful and make sure that I've got and make sure that I'm, I'm inside the balance of, of the law.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 34:52
You know, as Jesus said, make sure to sue as often as possible. It's one of the it's one of the gospel teachings.

Tara Jean Stevens 34:57
Well, I hope they've definitely taken that to heart, so.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 35:00
I'll be like, and this is exciting because I actually know a few people that are in I hop in Hamilton and I hop in Hamilton, which I just love. Because I mean, there's no way in my brain that does not conjure up International House of Pancakes. Like I just know and love that. There's so many great Christian things that they're like, do you understand what this sounds like? By the Christian circles? So some of them are so much funny. Is it unfair? What people think about charismatic Christianity? Like, are they people mocking these are just, these are just ridiculous. rubes. Is that fair? Is that an unfair assessment?

Tara Jean Stevens 35:30
Totally unfair. Because you know, what, if you completely get rid of religious beliefs and theology, and we're just talking about a group of people gathered together with the same mission, to heal from trauma and child abuse, and figure out how to love your husband again, and heal your marriage, that praying and meditation are real, that those things can help that touching people and physical touch really does have healing properties beyond the supernatural like in the real life, that dancing makes us feel happier and can help with our mental health, that raising our hands and shaking can induce like serotonin stuff in our bodies. With that stuff is all real. I just wish bloody hell there was a church for me that had all of that without t he like, well, I don't even know what.

Tara Jean Stevens 36:33
I heard that, there's one of my the two seasons that I'm working on in the future. One of them is a group of Pentecostal a network of Pentecostal churches in the Nashville area. And I'm really excited. They had the, you know, this church had like, more like Brownsville revival spread there. So it's like a little I feel like the through line would be heaven bent like Toronto, Bethel, then I hopped, but I'm going to mix up with this Nashville story. But one of my contacts down in Nashville said that there's a whole group of former Pentecostals like young people like me that that, you know, like us that grew up like that, who now meet, and they're all musicians and singers, and they sing all the same songs. But there's no Jesus there. It's just about hugging each other and supporting each other and asking how your week was, and singing these songs that moved them as children. And I think that for some reason, in the south, a lot of I don't know what it is about religion down there and evangelical Christianity, but there's a lot of people that it doesn't matter if they don't believe anymore. They're still going to church every Sunday, because there's a great potluck, and they're going to see their grandma and they're gonna sing that song they love and maybe have a cry to the pastor about their girlfriend, and I don't feel like their space like that up here in Canada. I haven't found it anyway.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:54
Yet. That's what we star.

Tara Jean Stevens 37:56
Well, let me know.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:57
All right. Yeah, I mean, I did. I had to go down there to do research on war. And I stayed with a friend of a friends that were national, and they were part of that. Like, it's really awesome. Like, you know, hipster couples, she's like, you know, all dreadlocks, bleached blonde, they're all covered in tattoos. They have this really funky house and it's like, dilapidated neighbor neighborhood and they just like to have all this food and stuff like that. They're all musicians. Yeah, they love the musician, but they're not gonna say when I heard of, well, it's got to be the same kind of collective and it's not a Nashville, of course is so much musics like the air Nashville.

Tara Jean Stevens 38:32
Yeah, it almost like I don't know, it's like music in that way left my, you know, that was in my life every day. Like, that's good. Now, I mean,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 38:42
other than going to concerts, when you really get to get together with a bunch of people and sing songs you all kind of other words do and I'll have an emotional reaction to

Tara Jean Stevens 38:49
However, that's why I mean, I work at a at a pop station. Now I work at kiss radio in Vancouver, and I love pop music and I love pop music that takes me to church. So like Coldplay, right? takes me to church I went I've been to several Coldplay concerts and outside of Jesus and the Holy Spirit it that is very much what a Coldplay concert is like, it's like a big church arena service.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 39:14
And of course, U2 like, I've seen U2 six times. And it was like, Oh my God, what he's reading the psalms that has all the laser lights like this is this is what I grew up with. Yeah, that's pretty good. And actually weirdly enough, in maybe a more in your vein to The Tragically Hip did that for me, and definitely before Gords last concert in 2016, but it was like the hip did that for me. Like there's something almost prophetic and screaming about his stuff that was so good.

Tara Jean Stevens 39:40
More so even with Coke machine glow, lesser so with The Tragically Hip, his solo album, for me is I can cry right now even thinking of it, that there is a vein of that that again, like put me in a meditative spiritual space and even now when I listened to it moves me in that same way and there's an act Access to healing and thought and then just, I don't know, just a vibration, you know? Yeah, definitely.

Anita Wing Lee 40:14
Did you set the timer?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 40:16
I have not. Are you ready?

Anita Wing Lee 40:17
Yep.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 40:18
The timer has been set in his counting down. Thank you for Episode Six. A little bit of a different format a would you like to speak to that or not?

Anita Wing Lee 40:27
Yeah, I just found it so hard to try to edit together what Tara, Jean Stevens said, and there's so many parts of her story that are important to include that we just ran with this.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 40:41
Yeah, and I mean, considering this is episode, Episode Six, and we're roughly gonna be doing 10, maybe 11 episodes, stay tuned listener, I think this is a good place, because we've had these five episodes of opening up the tabs as the metaphor that you use. And now we're starting to sort of transition into these landing spaces. And I feel like Tara Jeans, you know, we'll use a Christian word, her testimony her her interview, her ability to communicate her own journey was it's a great sort of segue into this last half of season one where we're sort of looking at some of the landing spots. So yeah, just I hope we really enjoyed the interview. Anything you want to sort of that stuck out to you that you want people to take away as we head into the second half of the season.

Anita Wing Lee 41:22
Yeah, I think what Tara Jean Stevens really brings to life is that emotional journey, that deconstruction is not just this intellectual thing, like she talks about this trauma and the anger. And I know what that feels like. And so often, when we're looking at people, they're turning away from church. I was just thinking today that there's this deep feeling of betrayal, I still have a little bit of it that I'm processing of like, it felt like my parents let me down, it was like, I believed you. And you told me a lie, when Christianity fell apart, and so I hear that in Tara Jean Stevens journey, and I'm so glad she's able to arrive at a place now where she can feel emotionally, psychologically healthier and, and raise her kids from this place of curiosity and from openness. But it obviously took her a long time to get there. And I hope that hearing her story makes us all a bit more compassionate towards people who don't have it figured out yet. Not that we do. But like giving us compassion for people who are angry, because you can have angry Christians, and you can have angry atheists. And, and usually there's something deeper going on, possibly from their childhood that they're not talking about. That's the reason they're angry.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 42:41
Oh, yeah, good point. I think, near the end of this interview, she really beautifully encapsulates this journey that yeah, if you were to drop in on maybe a certain like, several year period of her life, she would be angry, and hurt. But she also talks about this as a process that got her to be honest and say, Okay, I am angry here, the reasons why I'm angry and to work again, with a therapist, so important to have skilled professionals to walk you through these emotional and cognitive journeys. But she's, she's like the anger had to be addressed before it could get into a place of forgiveness. And for forgiveness comes curiosity from curiosity comes wander. And I think there's a lot that regardless of your faith tradition, this is something we have to give ourselves permission. I don't know how it was when you were raised. But there was a sense, I've said this before, you could go on this journey, but the journey had to be very short, and you had to get to the right place.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 43:34
And there's a lot of discomfort around certain emotional aspects like anger and disappointment where you almost couldn't give birth to that. And that, of course, doesn't heal it, it just makes it so much worse. It forces it underground. So for all of our listeners to, we want to acknowledge that this is going to be a whole bunch of uncomfortable feelings. And I'll wrap up with this. Were 3 minutes and 22 seconds left. I attended the indigenous legacy rally at Nathan Phillips Square some time ago. And one of the people speaking there really, this this line has stuck with me and when they were talking about the residential schools specifically, but talking about Christianity a little more generally, and saying that the struggle she and her family had with Christians is we were a people that had no questions. And I think this gets to what Tara Jean was talking about like that, even if it's unintentional, there's that arrogance that there's a sort of coming from this, these are the answers and I'm gonna find you you need to find a way to get the same answers I have. And we see the absolute the trauma in people like Tara Jean, you and either myself, but also of course the systemic trauma of in Canada, especially that has been so played out with the residential school tragedy. So I really appreciated the fact that she gave us a space to sort of show the journey that we call deconstruction, but sometimes that is not fair. As as you were discovering in this wonderful podcast. So with two minutes 22 seconds left, how do you like that? What are some of the takeaways for our are listening from your perspective.

Anita Wing Lee 45:02
I had a thought but it's

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 45:05
a good use of time. Okay, I will I'll just jump in here. Because I found this episode, there's a little bit more

Anita Wing Lee 45:10
Oh, wait, I remembered. I was gonna get so emotional you cut me off it has to do with, like, it just so happened that she had this experience that involves the Toronto Blessing and the church that became Catch The Fire. And I just so happened to land at this church that was called Catch the Fire. And I read and I discovered this world famous Toronto Blessing. And I'm really glad we included her story because I could see myself in her like I could very well still be, I could be in her shoes. If I hadn't had that thing happened to me in Montenegro, which nobody could control. Like, I'm sure my parents prayed forever. And maybe they contributed to it. But ultimately, there was no human being that made that happen. And so she could also be in my shoes. As she said,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 45:54
she'd gone to Bible college, I'd be doing this podcast with her.

Anita Wing Lee 45:58
Yeah. And so I think seeing that, for me just, it's like, we don't know where we're going. I don't like she doesn't know where she's gonna be. I don't know, if I might be in her shoes in a couple of years. And I think but having that space to talk about it and walk through it with people is something that we need, because our world is complicated now.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 46:19
Yes. And it's been so simple before. As a historian, I know that. For me in this episode, too, there's a little bit more of me my personal journey, some of my struggles. So your vulnerability, terror genes vulnerability, like obviously, YouTube, this podcast here in this interview, do has inspired me but there's, there's a certain amount of fear. So I don't know if that's what you're feeling. But there's a certain amount of fear that people listening to this might judge me personally. So I think this is a good time for the conversation. These are the brave conversations that need to happen in the 21st century in Canadian Christianity, which is obviously our focus. But of course, Christians around the globe, have being willing to be brave and open, open and vulnerable with each other, and to not take the page of my life that I'm on right now. And somehow think that that stands for the whole story that is James Robertson or Anita Wing Lee, we have now 10 seconds left. So I want to encourage people with ongoing vulnerability in the last few seconds. What do you want to say?

Anita Wing Lee 47:18
This is an interview that just like hits me and I hope that I hope that as you listen, you know, it encourages you to dig into the parts of your life. And look at your childhood and look at those things that really bothered you. It's okay.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 47:32
That's excellent. Yeah, look at the childhood that was the alarm so we'll let it go now, but I also encourage people to listen to Heaven Bent. Seasons one, two and three, because I was saying to Anita, season three is got me I'm enthralled. I love season one, love season two, but season three is enthralled me. Okay, that's it seven and a half minutes.

Anita Wing Lee 47:48
See you next week.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 47:50
See you next week.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 47:52
Episode.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 47:53
There you go. That's better.

Anita Wing Lee 47:57
Heavenly minded earthly good is the production of Tyndale University. Visit our website for more information.