Heavenly Minded Earthly Good

Anita Wing Lee 00:03
I was afraid that seminary would brainwash me with Christian doctrine. Not that I knew what doctrine was, but it sounded big, mean and oppressive. I didn't really know what seminary was either turns out seminary as graduate school for learning about Scripture and theology and usually to prepare people to become ordained ministers. So when my mom suggested I go study in seminary, I responded, No, thank you. Oh, what was going on? It was bewildering how Christian my life was starting to look.

Anita Wing Lee 00:41
In 2019, I was still working at catch the fire church. I'd been there for a year and started to get a handle on who this God character is. I think God is good. But I wasn't 100% sure on the whole Christianity and church thing. Despite my initial aversion to seminary, I couldn't shake the feeling that I was supposed to go and study God. After all, a big catalyst for my journey out of Christianity was the fact that I didn't get to go to a Christian college after high school. That journey had taken me to 35 countries by the time I was 26, and had returned to Toronto. Still, I felt mysteriously drawn towards spirituality, other religions and Wisdom Teachings, I gravitated towards books that were about the mystical, the cosmic and divine. So what was I looking for then that I still needed to find?

Anita Wing Lee 01:42
Tyndale University presents Heavenly Minded Earthly Good. Deconstruction is the word commonly used for the process of critically dissecting your Christian beliefs.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 01:53
For some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word of backsliding or apostasy or heresy.

Anita Wing Lee 02:01
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human.

Dr. Helen Noh 02:10
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, right? Their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational layers.

Anita Wing Lee 02:18
This podcast follows my personal journey through deconstruction. Along the way, we're going to chat with professors, pastors, psychologists, researchers, historians, and artists.

Tara Jean Stevens 02:30
But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to help.

Anita Wing Lee 02:39
We'll explore the questions so many of us have about Christianity, the stuff you probably didn't feel comfortable bringing up on Sunday at youth group or small group. I'm your host and guide for this journey. And Anita Wing Lee.

Anita Wing Lee 02:56
When I left high school, I happily left behind the church that my parents worked in and the one that I had grown up in. I was 18 years old, and finally free. I had always wanted to work in media. So I was enrolled in a Media Studies program, I ate up my courses that taught us how capitalism was ruining the world, and how the male gaze objectified women. In the summer after my first year, I landed an internship at a marketing agency. It was a really good internship. I was the only first year student out of nine interns, and I thought I was set for life. But as a part of this internship, I had two weeks where I was stationed at a hardware store to be a promotional representative for a vacuum cleaner. I had a little piece of carpet in front of me and a big sign behind me. My job was to throw dirt on this piece of carpet, and vacuum it back up through dirt, and vacuum that backup and through dirt again, and vacuum it back up. I did this for eight hours a day. This is not the life I want.

Anita Wing Lee 04:08
By the end of that summer, I had made a chunk of change from working full time. But I went back to university empty inside and determined to find a better way. If this was the best life had to offer me stuck inside a freezing air conditioned office during the glorious mid summer days, creating campaigns to sell stuff that people don't need. I don't want any of this. So like any reasonable 20 Something I went traveling. I spent the following three summers of my undergraduate education, finding every way possible to not be in Canada. I taught English in Italy, worked in Russia, Ukraine and Tanzania, and backpacked across East Africa by my last semester If I was certain I didn't want to work in an office. Then I discovered the wonderful world of online marketing. Bloggers, online coaches and marketing gurus talked about the location independent lifestyle, work from your laptop, publish content, reach people everywhere, and make a living. It seemed like the perfect combo of everything I wanted.

Anita Wing Lee 05:24
At 23 years old, I threw myself headfirst and heart first into building an online business. I designed a website created a brand, and Anita Lee became Anita Wing Lee.

Anita Wing Lee 05:38
Hey guys, its Anita Wing Lee. Hey, guys, it's Anita. And Hi guys, its Anita Wing Lee.

Anita Wing Lee 05:44
I didn't know what I was doing. But I followed what the online marketing gurus told me to do. And while I had a few small successes, I also found myself waking up and panic and anxiety after a couple months of anxiety got so bad that I couldn't even look at a spreadsheet without freaking out. I'm doing what I love, I'm supposed to be happy. I started looking for answers and spirituality. Desperate to feel better. I started meditating, which led to reading about Buddhism and the law of attraction. I discovered all the books in the section of the bookstore that are beside the religion books. Sometimes they're called New Age books, but to me, it was just spirituality. It was a connection to the divine, to something bigger than myself, and it gave me hope. These were books that advocated peace, freedom, and empowerment. I believed in a connection to something transcendent. And it didn't have rules like the Christian God, I found a word for myself. I'm spiritual but not religious, it seemed is so much better to be spiritual, but not religious.

Anita Wing Lee 06:59
In Canada today, the fastest growing religious demographic is non religious, or no religious affiliation. Generally speaking, you can't bring up a spirituality or religion in the boardroom, the government or a conference call. The baseline is to keep your religion if you have one, private. To better understand this phenomenon. I spoke with Dr. Sarah Wilkins Laflamme, an associate professor of sociology at the University of Waterloo, she is co author of the book none of the above non religious identity in the US and Canada. Her book looks at the fascinating differences between the religious and non religious, as someone who considers herself neither spiritual nor religious, I wanted to get her take on what it means to be religious or not in Canada.

Anita Wing Lee 07:51
We look at some of those differences, right? So there's, you know, the the non religious, on average, have a much more liberal and progressive value orientation in terms of political socio political issues. So they're much more pro environment, pro immigration, pro LGBTQ two s plus communities, pro feminist, pro equality, they're they're very, they're their values are much more at the left end of the political spectrum. And they use those values to define themselves especially like when you talk to them, they often bring up those values is key to their own identities. And, and it is a way to kind of mark a boundary between them and say, more actively religious people who they tend to see as more conservative, and on average, actively religious individuals in country are more conservative doesn't mean they all are, but just on average, it's a trend we see. And it's definitely how the non religious see those who are more involved in faith groups.

Anita Wing Lee 08:43
Oh, this explains why I resisted calling myself a Christian. I don't want to be associated with those conservative religious types. My personal values are more liberal and progressive. And so spirituality was attractive to me. Here's how Dr. Wilkins Laflamme explains spirituality, or what she calls self spiritualities the act of creating your own spiritual practice and faith.

Anita Wing Lee 09:11
There are elements common to spiritual endeavors, even abroad shared doctrine among some of these spiritualities right. This would include any kind of search for one's authentic self valuing personal authenticity above conformity to external religious norms and authorities and relocating the sacred from the external and transcendent to the internal and the imminent. The terms of religion and religious seem to have a more negative connotation for many today right compared with the word spiritual and spirituality. Religion is often associated with the negative historical and contemporary baggage of institutional and oppressive doctrine and authority and abuse of power. Not for everyone but often when you when you ask people that's, tends can be a default that they start thinking of when you use the word religion.

Anita Wing Lee 09:57
In comparison to religion, spiritual already has some qualities that fit with our day and age and make it so attractive.

Anita Wing Lee 10:05
Whereas spirituality seems to be more associated with personal freedom, exploration, self reliance, choice, self development and authenticity. These being highly prized values in our current Western cultures, that experience what Charles Taylor calls a massive subjective turn since the 1960s. In other ways, who aren't like advanced in that process of individualism, where we're kind of you know, when that goes hand in hand, with our consumer societies, there's these values of kind of that really are focused on the individual that are really put on a pedestal in many of our western societies, including in Canada today. Such forms of spirituality would seem, at first glance to be especially well suited for today's Western societies which value this personal authenticity, self development, independence, freedom and self reliance. Why are they so popular today? Well, because they, they seem to do well in our societies. And they kind of, again, it's the chicken and the egg, right? Is it? Are we linking the values that we like to spirituality and, and because of that we'd like spirituality or spirituality contains the values that we like, and so we like spirituality? It's a kind of, it's a weird situation, but it is, does seem to be why self spiritualities are so popular. And this is also made possible in a context of growing pluralism, right? Where are you do you mentality, right? Or it's just like, you know, quintessential to the millennial generation, prevails? Right? Like, it's okay you do you do your own thing. And because of that, you know, spirituality is of various sorts can can flourish in certain ways.

Anita Wing Lee 11:31
Now, I can see several factors played into my own rejection of religion. First, there's the trauma and grief that we talked about in episode two. Secondly, it's also just not cool to be religious. Western culture favors the rational, and religion with its sometimes anxious mythical stories, doesn't get a whole lot of credit. Thirdly, spirituality, and this amorphous way of developing ourselves, fits in with a Western individualist culture of improving ourselves. And number four, travel. Once I left the Western bubble, and I realized that the way we do things in the West is just one way and it's not even necessarily the better way. I had a whole new set of options. I could live in another country, I could choose a completely different kind of lifestyle. And I didn't need to do things the way the West did. From the time I was 20, until I was 26. I bounced between countries every couple of weeks or months, I would stay with friends I met on my travels or met online.

Anita Wing Lee 12:40
Along the way, I discovered a kind of hospitality and generosity that I had never experienced at home in Toronto. It was like the people I met traveling were angels to me. Interestingly, God was also starting to find his way into my life through the books I was reading. I would pick up books about spirituality, with titles like wishes fulfilled the power of intention, and may cause miracles. And halfway through the book, it would start being about God. non Christian authors were writing about how God had a plan for my life, and that God was good. This happened so often that I got to a point where, whenever I saw the word God, and a non Christian book, I'd think, really you again, but it was through these spirituality books that I became comfortable with the idea of God, after totally ignoring him from the time I had left high school. During these eras, I was very spiritual. I trusted that the universe had my back, I saw enlightenment through meditation and healing and yoga. I believed in a higher power. I liked the idea of knowing that an all powerful entity lives in me, loves me, wants to bless me, and wants me to live a full, amazing life. My desire for an anti-capitalistic, greener, simpler and more generous way of life was wrapped into a spiritual path. That was an amalgamation of the kind of world I wanted to help create. Just like Dr. Wilkinson Muslim describes, my spiritual beliefs were mixed into my values for what I wanted in society. Jumping to 2019 when I was 28. A year into working I catch the fire church in Toronto. I didn't just forget everything that had happened to me. I didn't forget that I had traveled the world and met amazing people who weren't Christian. I didn't forget all of the spirituality books that I had read. I just put it all on hold. I was in a totally different environment. Now. It was odd to me that all these people went to church I mean, they can't all be brainwashed, can they?

Anita Wing Lee 15:04
Am I being brainwashed, turning a blind eye to the issues of the world and falling into an easier life where we just saying, Holy, holy, holy is the Lord God Almighty all the time? So now I was spiritual and religious. Some of my beliefs were similar to religious people, and others were similar to spiritual people. How does this work? Even though I was surrounded by people who worked at the church and went to church, I couldn't shake my questions around. What about all the harm Christianity has done? What about the Crusades when Christians across Europe went and killed people in the name of Jesus? And what about the role that the church has played in the residential school system in Canada? Why am I even working for a church? Do I want to be part of a church? What's the point of church? Thankfully, I found someone who's been asking similar questions. Kevin Makins's as the founding pastor of Eucharist church in Hamilton, Ontario. And he's the author of a book called Why would anyone go to church, he says, there are a lot of things stacked against the church.

Kevin Makins 16:14
I mean, one thing I've realized is that the church cannot hang with the options of the world. Like if you are looking for entertaining lectures or teachings, you can go find TED talks, you can find stand up comics, you know, who will say things that can't see from the pulpit, you'll find people asking all sorts of compelling questions in very polished and beautiful ways all over the place. If you go to most congregations, you'll find a pastor who's likely not had as much prep time as they wish they had, trying to speak to, you know, 50 people, half of whom are entertaining, children are trying not to fall asleep. Like that's just the kind of state of most of our congregations including Eucharist, it's, you know, we are in a time where the church doesn't compete anymore. When it comes to music, there are better concerts out there, there are better ways to learn out there in so many ways, the church has been outclassed by the rise of podcasts by the rise of you know, all the alternatives for what you can do with your time.

Kevin Makins 17:18
However, the place that the church has not been outclassed is when it comes to encountering the living spirit of God, with other human beings who are also as much of a mess as you are, and learning and witnessing what emerges from a group of people earnestly trying to follow that living God together with all their weaknesses stated up front. Nobody's doing that, like, no one is, you know, dropping off ads in my mailbox saying, you know, come to this mediocre community where we're all trying to figure it out. And by the grace of God, we've learned three things that's just not marketable. And so, you know, I think what we are learning is that the church, if the church is going to try to keep up with the pace and acceleration of the world, it will fail.

Anita Wing Lee 18:08
Hmm, there's something there, as a place that the church has not been outclassed is when it comes to encountering the living spirit of God. As someone who's lived in spiritual and intentional communities, I can say, honestly, that there is something different about being in a church. It's like, there's always this invisible extra person involved in everything we do. This spiritual presence is changing us, and it's also changing circumstances. So while the church may suck at some other things, there's nothing else quite like it in the world that is supposed to be helping people encounter God. But before I get too deep into church, before I decide if I'm going to be spiritual, or religious, or both, or neither, I need an answer to my million dollar question. The question underneath all questions. What is Christianity? This seems like a question I could bring to Kevin.

Kevin Makins 19:10
You know, I think that Christianity is a way of life that is shaped by Christ. And by the way that he taught us to live, which is you know, the way of Christ is, you know, its engagement with the living God. The God who is the God of gods you know, the unknowable God it is it is a trusting relationship with that unknowable God as as father or as, as a creator, as source. The way of Christ is a life of prayer and service you know, and and a spiritual pattern of living a way that reforms our psyches or souls, reshapes our desires so that we want what God wants for us and we enter faithfully in that path. And you know, the way of Christ is the Way of Christ is a constant day sent into grace and receiving of grace. But my sense is that it's probably best just to start with Christ has died, Christ is risen Christ has come again,

Anita Wing Lee 20:10
Kevin also talked about how Christianity is not just head knowledge. It's also a process.

Kevin Makins 20:17
I think that Christianity, as the way as the way of Christ and the way of the living God, Christianity must be experienced, it cannot be only discussed, it cannot be understood at the level of knowledge. There's a knowing and a believing side to Christianity, and there's an encountering and becoming side to Christianity, until you have started to become a Christian, you will only know the theory. And the theory is great. But the theory is not the becoming. And the becoming is what builds the faith. And the becoming is what transforms us into becoming is what will ultimately I think, pull all of us deeper and deeper into the way of Christ.

Anita Wing Lee 21:03
That's it. That's what I noticed was happening to me, I was becoming something different. As I worked at this church, I was changing. Now, I wasn't sure if this was a better version of me, I felt like I lost some of my edge, my good edge, like the things that made me unique, but also some of my bad edge, the parts that were fearful or prideful, either way, I seem to becoming a more peaceful version of myself. So there might be some benefits to this way of Christ. But another lingering issue that always kept me away from Christianity was all of the harm that it has done. I asked Kevin, what he'd say to someone concerned about this.

Kevin Makins 21:49
I would say that that person should be encouraged that they can even see it. Because you know, what our flesh what our ego wants to do when we first encounter something that is threatening to our worldviews, we want to push it away. So for a lot of people, especially if they would call themself a Christian, as soon as somebody says, Well, you know, here's the history of the church's relationship with indigenous people. Here's, you know, the history of residential schools, here's the history of conversion therapy, you know, a lot of Christians would immediately respond with a, and those aren't they weren't real Christians. You know, I'm a good Christian, those were bad Christians, you know. So there's, there's kind of an immediate desire to distance ourselves from the ways that things have been broken, the ways that harm has been done. And I think any Christian who is grieved by that harm is someone who is willing to see the truth. And that is what will set them free.

Kevin Makins 22:47
You know, that's how God will begin the process of setting someone free from that. But it begins with that grief. So I'd begin by by saying, it's a good thing that you could see it, I would then encourage them to start to, to ask some deeper questions. It's easy to see the harm that Christianity has done at a distance and across history. But then I'd start encouraging that person to reflect on what they actually know to be true from their own experience. So if you spend a lot of time on Instagram, you're very likely to have a negative view of Christianity, unless your algorithm is one of the like, Yay, Jesus algorithms where everybody's having breakfast with Jesus and coffee with the Lord in the morning, you know, nothing wrong with that. But there are people that I'm sure their Instagram algorithms are all pro Christian kind of messages. For me and the people that I know, the algorithm is always feeding us just news of all the failures of the church, every bad news story from every bad news congregation across, you know, history and across America. And so I'd encourage somebody who's feeling already the weight and grief of that to take a second to unplug from those sources to begin to do some internal work, because the truth is, the bad news spreads more rapidly than good news. And so when you encounter bad news stories about Christians, there's a good chance that those are being fed to you by an algorithm that wants your attention so it can make money off your eyes, so don't trust it entirely.

Anita Wing Lee 24:19
Kevin's point about how much bad news we take in it's something I've been thinking about as well. In science, they call it a negativity bias. As humans, we have a tendency to give more importance to negative experiences or bad news than to positive or neutral experiences. It's why when your boss delivers bad news or bad feedback hits us so much harder than when they say something positive. We're also more prone to remember traumatic experiences better than positive ones. And we think more often about negative things or things that could go wrong than positive ones. And so that's not an excuse for bad things that churches have done. It doesn't necessarily discount the good that churches have also done in the world. Christians have been behind many social movements that have improved society for everyone, like the abolitionist movement to end slavery, hospitals, health care, civil rights, charities, workers rights, and women's rights. The people behind many of those movements were motivated by their faith in God.

Anita Wing Lee 25:30
So while it's easy to look at the harm Christianity has done and say, Oh, that's bad, I don't want to be a part of that, which is what I did. It's also reasonable to look honestly and humbly at the good. I mean, look at business, there are plenty of businesses that are corrupt and doing things wrong, and exploiting people for money. But most of the world works in business in some form or another, we have yet to come up with a better form of a social organization. So you can discard business and tried to create a whole new form, or you can try to reform business and there are plenty of people who do that, working in business to try to make it better for everyone. But this does not help in my conundrum around spirituality versus religion. In our world today, it seems like you can be a perfectly good person without God, I asked Dr. Wilkins, Laflamme for her take on this.

Anita Wing Lee 26:29
You know, in most of these non religious individuals, you know, when we ask them, and we run surveys and interviews with them, they still seem to be leading pretty happy, healthy, and you know, productive. I don't know how you want to find that term. It's an old term and but productive lives in society, right? They're working, they're having families, everything's going well, for them, for the most part, it doesn't mean their lives are perfect, but for the most part, they seem to be doing okay. Right, the vast majority of non religious individuals will define themselves as moral people, right? When interviewed. And, you know, they'll say they have a moral code that's often quite similar to what Christians will say in terms of their morality, right. So they aim to do good in society, they treat others as they would want to be treated themselves, you know, and so on or so. Now, would I say that like, say, non Christians, or non religious individuals are better? Christians? I think, I don't know if that was part of the question. No, obviously, I'm not like, that's not how I think and it's obviously not my place or my job to say that, you know, I people are people, right? People do what they do, I don't see people as good or bad, I just kind of I'm fascinated by how they live their lives and society, right. It's not my place to say whether that's a good or a bad thing. There's different definitions of what good looks like.

Anita Wing Lee 27:46
In a lot of ways, it's a good thing that we live in a society in Canada, where it's generally acceptable to practice whatever faith you want, or to have no faith. That means that I get to make a decision about my life. It also means that one way or another, I will make a decision. To choose to not follow a religion is also an act of faith. No one can be entirely non religious, one way or another, we have to believe something. And I'm not convinced that being non religious or spiritual is necessarily better than being religious. I see a lot of overlap. As much as people might think that religious people are judgy. I was a living, breathing example, that you could be a spiritual person, but still coexist in a religion. For some reason, this church hadn't fired me. And this seminary even accepted me as a student. And if I can get over the fact that maybe being religious isn't cool, then it's just one of many ways to live.

Anita Wing Lee 28:55
I searched so hard for the good life. For me, it came through travel, then blogging, and entrepreneurship. And as much as I seemed courageous on the outside, I was desperate for the good life. I had formulated an idea of what that should look like. For me, it was living out of a suitcase, traveling often being surrounded by nature and beautiful destinations, and working from my laptop making content. I think others search just as hard for the good life in other ways, climbing the corporate ladder, having the perfect family, or attaining that elusive six pack. When my younger self left Christianity, clearly I threw out the baby with the bathwater, plus the tub, the top of the shower curtain, the tiles, the whole bathroom. But now that I was inside a church and inside seminary, I could see that yeah, the bath water can be done. already, but there might be a baby here. But this was just the beginning. Little did I know going to seminary would unravel even more layers of this Christianity thing.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 30:24
Redcording, this is episode three, seven minutes. Ready 123. You clap.

Anita Wing Lee 30:31
Okay

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 30:36
Well hello listeners and welcome to seven minutes of unpolished excellence at the end of this episode, the third episode of Heavenly Minded Earthly Good.

Anita Wing Lee 30:45
I'm here with Dr. James Tyler Robertson.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 30:47
and I'm here with Anita Wing Lee. It was pretty good. I like doing this we're getting. We're getting Morning Show vibes. Alright, the timer has started. We now have seven minutes listener. Anita, you told me some time ago a story about a concerned pastoral neighborly walk you had. And I think it's especially fitting for this episode. So I was wondering if you could take myself and the listeners through that. And we'll we'll go from there.

Anita Wing Lee 31:12
Yeah, during the pandemic, I discovered that one of my neighbors actually went to catch the fire many years ago. And I told her that I was going to seminary, we would go on lunchtime walks. And I tell her about the papers I'm writing. And one day she got really concerned. And she told me that when she was a youngster people used to call seminary cemetery because it was the place where your faith went to go die. I had never heard of this before. And it made me a bit nervous. Because I was already in over my head and thinking what have I gotten myself into?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 31:45
That is one will address the term youngster. Because that's, that's what that leads me to believe that this is a true story. I don't think you would have, I don't think I'll put the word youngster in this made up fictional character. But you know what? That is definitely not the first time I've ever heard that. I have heard that frequently, both through my own graduate and doctoral studies. And of course, now being a cemetery. Professor myself, you hear what I did there?

Anita Wing Lee 32:13
Yes.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 32:14
Okay, good. Yeah, I mean, I think this this gets at what what it is you've been looking at in this in this third episode, and actually, for the first two episodes, but now that you're sort of talking introducing us all to your time in seminary, so you've been in Catch The Fire. Now you're getting into seminary, and you're gonna be unpacking that In this and future episodes. I think what you're seeing is a little bit of another one of those examples of someone who is very concerned about what an open mind challenging ideas critiquing the church can do to a person who is otherwise a faithful Christian. And this always sort of strikes me as so not funny. But whenever somebody has sort of expressed that, to me, that idea of seminary person cemetery, I like to retort, absolutely, seminary is the place you should go to have the faith that you had going in die, if you leave seminary after like 3, 4, 8 years, hopefully shouldn't take you that long. And you think the same way, then you probably weren't paying attention, or myself as a professor, any of my colleagues in this field have failed, because part of this part of what makes us beautiful, is our ability to challenge and help you to think and see things in new and exciting ways. And sometimes that means older thinking might have to die.

Anita Wing Lee 33:35
Well, I don't know how convincing that would be to prospective students. But personally, I really enjoy the fact that parts of my belief system have died. I've actually enjoyed being surrounded by peers who like to sit around and with professors who've spent years looking at these really nitty gritty questions, because a lot of these questions bug everyone, right, we all want to know, like, Why do bad things happen? What is really, God think about sin and, and we tend to just push these under the rug, but I've found it really valuable to sit in the questions and to get all these perspectives. And, you know, maybe it's a particular personality type, but I find it fun.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 34:17
Well, yeah, and good for you. I'm hoping a lot of other people do as well. So maybe instead of the word die, because that has a morbidity to it. Although let's be honest, if we're Christians, I mean, we we will experience bodily death, but I believe it's GK Chesterton never forget, we follow a God who knows his way out of the grave. But in the meantime, if that word is a bit too dramatic, I like to tell my students at the beginning of any of the history classes, it's also gives you permission to jettison beliefs that you like, oh, that idea of we remember Dr. Franklin speaking in a couple episodes before that idea is only 50, 60 years old. I was under the impression that this is what Jesus himself said. So it actually sets you free to maybe drop some stuff that weren't that wasn't working for you or was causing you questions or whatnot, and in so doing, hopefully encountering other believers both present day and that have come before us, that have opened us up to whole new understandings, wisdom and experience that can actually enrich and deepen our faith.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 35:14
So again, while I'm sort of being tongue in cheek about the whole idea of your faith dying, what I really am trying to say is like, let's remember what Jesus said, set for something for a seed to grow, it has to first die and go to the ground. And so that's where we're actually starting to see the growth. But in those early days, yeah, those walks can be a little bit scary. So I'm sympathetic to people that worry about that. This is a great episode, and I'm just gonna keep on rolling through it. And I definitely loved your directions with Dr. Wilkins, lifelong, because she's She's not only a colleague, but a friend of mine. And her insights into into Christianity and Canada in this century are profoundly valuable. Was there anything about your interview with her that stuck out?

Anita Wing Lee 35:51
Yeah, I really appreciated her because she wasn't trying to be pro Christian or pro religion. She wanted to study it from from an objective perspective. And what I found interesting was that she could name off a lot of good things that religious people gave to society, religious people like, and this isn't just Christians, this was Muslim people, and Sikhs and other faiths, they tend to be more involved in their communities, they tend to give more, and this is a perspective that in our society today, we don't really acknowledge and she also mentioned how when a society is very anti religion, it creates this huge blind spot. So that instead of looking to religious leaders, we only look to university leaders, professors, you know, the experts that we see are often in academic institutions. But she's like religious leaders have always had good things to offer society across history. And if we don't pay attention to that at all, because we think, you know, religion is outdated, we're missing something. And that blind spot is going to come up again in a society and hit us in the face. And there are times in our own society where it hits us in the face.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:04
Yeah, fair enough. And I can speak very candidly this, you, you rarely want academics leading anything. So in this last 30 seconds of the unpolished, you want to leave a couple questions for people to sort of dissect and kick around because again with Dr. Wilkins will flop. She's not pro church, she's not anti church, she's she's offering us a very, very clear idea. So maybe in your groups now sort of discuss a lot of us are very aware of this term secularization or post, post Christendom excuse me, and and what are some of the things about maybe some of the bad things about the Christian church that you're actually think maybe this does need to go in for in order for us to go forward? And what are some good things about Christianity like, Oh, we don't want to get rid of that going forward or else the society will end up in even more trouble? Oh, I didn't set a timer. We are now at seven minutes and seven seconds so that's it i three questions. Question. Do you guys oh my goodness, what it's not even point of having a seven minutes then.

Anita Wing Lee 38:01
When it comes to spirituality? Are there things that are there aspects of spirituality that you really relate with that you felt like oh, I can't be religious because, you know, that's a spiritual belief. Just look at that overlap between like, what is our world believe is progressive, what is spiritual? What is religious and, and give yourself some permission to perhaps have overlap?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 38:22
All right, I guess that was pretty good. I guess it was worth extending. All right. Well, this has been apparently almost eight minutes of unpolished post Heavenly Minded, Earthly Good or during whatever. Alright, good enough.

Anita Wing Lee 38:35
See you in the Next one.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 38:36
All right. Bye.

Anita Wing Lee 38:39
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