Heavenly Minded Earthly Good

Anita Wing Lee 00:03
A Prayer of unknowing by Thomas Merton. My Lord God, I have no idea where I'm going, I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end, nor do I really know myself. And the fact that I think I am following your will, does not mean I'm actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you, does, in fact, please you. And I hope I have that desire and all I am doing, I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this, you will lead me by the right road. Though I may know nothing about it. Therefore, will I trust you always. Though I may seem to be lost in the shadow of death. I will not fear for you or ever with me. And you will never leave me to face my perils alone. Amen.

Anita Wing Lee 01:03
When I think about what Christianity means to me now, the best way I can describe it is by way of analogy. I have this friend, and he's so good. I wish I could introduce him to you. He's rich, handsome. He's genuinely a good person. And he's always looking out for me, always providing for me always covering every single bill. And I can go over to his house whenever I want to hang out. He's totally cool with me reading his pantry. I've got his number on my phone. Anytime I need help. I can just call him and he's got all these connections all around the world. Whenever I listen to his stories, I just feel like my whole life is taken care of. Like, what do you need? Do you want a new job? Are you sick? Do you need a place to live? Let me talk to him. Let me introduce them to you. That's how it feels.

Anita Wing Lee 02:06
Tyndale University presents heavenly minded earthly good. Deconstruction is the word commonly used for the process of critically dissecting your Christian belief.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 02:17
For some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word of backsliding or apostasy or heresy.

Anita Wing Lee 02:25
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human.

Dr. Helen Noh 02:33
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, right? Their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational layers. This

Anita Wing Lee 02:42
podcast follows my personal journey through deconstruction. Along the way, we're going to chat with professors, pastors, psychologists, researchers, historians and artists.

Tara Jean Stevens 02:53
But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to help.

Anita Wing Lee 03:02
We'll explore the questions so many of us have about Christianity, the stuff you probably didn't feel comfortable bringing up on Sunday at youth group or small group. I'm your host and guide for this journey. And Anita Wing Lee.

Anita Wing Lee 03:18
What does my rich, handsome good friend do for a living? Well, he's kind of a painter, and everything he creates is priceless. He loves beauty and goodness. And he's the most good person I've ever known. Like, good to the core. You might recognize his name. He's kind of a superstar, and people get starstruck, but to me, he's my friend. And I know he'd be totally up for helping you. Because he tries to help everyone. I don't know how he does it with only 24 hours a day. But he does. The more time I spend with this good friend, the more I'm changed. I'm slowly absorbing his mannerisms. His generosity is kindness. He tells me this whole earth planet is his his creation. And he loves good stewards, people who will take care of that well with him. And for him. He's just a really generous and good friend. I don't know how else to describe it. A lot of people know him from afar, but I feel so fortunate and so blessed to to know him personally. Some people might think I'm crazy, like, How did I become friends with such a powerful, influential person? Or they'll think that he's imaginary, because until they've met him and experienced just how good he is, it's hard to believe.

Anita Wing Lee 04:42
And the really cool thing is, wherever I go, I can find people who actually know my friend personally, just like I did. And so they're kind of part of His kingdom, because we know him. There's this bond that instantly connects us and often people like me, who consider themselves a part of my friends kingdom, they're different. Oh, and now there's this famous TV show about him, The Chosen. And I'm so glad more people are getting to know him. And because of just how good he is and how at peace, and how filled with love I am when I'm in his presence, I find that as long as I hang out with him, the usual anxiety about things in life dissolves. It's like I cannot feel fear, and be in his presence at the same time. He loves me so much. That it makes me love him.

Anita Wing Lee 05:44
How did I go from the distraught and Anita that arrived in Toronto 1915 days ago, to the one who lives today, who knows this good and gracious friend, and wants to share him with people? We've covered a lot of ground in season one of heavenly minded earthly good. And when I asked registered psychotherapist Lindsay Thompson, about how I pieced together the broken hurting parts of myself, this is what she said.

Lyndsay Thompson 06:20
Well, I think a big part of I mean, we've got like seven huge, massive topics overlapping here. But I mean, I think a big part of grief and loss is meaning, right, we have to make meaning of what was lost or what we're going through. So I think that our faith and God can really give us another dimension to meaning. Again, I am just thinking in my own life like that really came with some out of the box thinking and some creativity, right, like, using your imagination to, to draw on new thoughts, new feelings, new images that can help make connections and, and give meaning to whatever this new is that has been or has had to come from that grief. Again, and I don't think it's necessarily like, always cognitive, like I'm such a huge somatic person, like I think so much has to happen in our body, and we have to feel and embody it.

Anita Wing Lee 07:29
What is the meaning of what happened to me in Montenegro? Was it a dark night of the soul? Was God sending me a thunderbolt? Was it angels blocking my way? Was I like Jonah swallowed up by a whale and sent in a different direction? Was God showing me a spiritual no man's land between heaven and hell? Or was I just a lonely, traumatized, afraid girl looking for friends? At home? Was I just a overly sensitive Enneagram type seven and type four, whose unprocessed emotional backlog caught up with her? Or was it the greatest blessing in disguise? Like God ripping a band aid off a wound so that I could get fresh air and heal? Or was it that rich, handsome painter guy? I've only heard of him. But now I know he wanted to be my friend. And maybe he was calling me from afar. Montenegro was all of this and more.

Lyndsay Thompson 08:32
So I read you my favorite quote because I feel like this isn't it always comes back to me. So Jerry it's by Jerry Root. But he was talking about George MacDonald who is the author of like the princess and the goblin golden key, that kind of stuff. So there this was like a seminar on the golden key. And he was talking about this character tangle in it. She's a little girl in her she's called tangle because her hair's always a mess. And she's really sweet. But she ends up being a princess, right? So he says, every little girl is a princess, she needs to have stories told about her because she's in trouble forgetting about her rank and acting as if she grew out of the mud. And like that, to me is like, our faith is like we need to have stories told about us or else we're gonna forget who we are. Right? And I think that like trauma and grief and all of these things, and maybe even the process of deconstructing it is like how do we remember we're not growing up out of the mud? Right? How do we remember and, and, and get creative and when Yeah, remember who we are.

Anita Wing Lee 09:37
The more I hung around Christian circles over the last five years, and listen to the worship songs, the sermons, read the books, studied and read papers, and got to know other kingdom people. The more I heard the message that I'm loved, chosen, created for a purpose, flawed yet redeemed. And redeemed is no longer this word floating in bright orange letters and kids Sunday school lessons. Redeemed is the breath I'm about to take.

Anita Wing Lee 10:18
I don't deserve to be here. Yeah, maybe I didn't murder anyone. But my sins and my brokenness are just as severe. I turned my heart away from God out of fear, anger, sadness, resentment. But whenever I look at those years, and I want to say, Ah, she's disgusting. God says, No, I love her.

Anita Wing Lee 10:52
So did I need to be a Christian? To hear these kinds of words of affirmation, telling me that I'm valuable? And I have worth? No, of course not. There are plenty of positive self help books, therapists, YouTube channels, philosophies and other religions out there, many of which I had explored, and I still continue to learn from. And from the time I was aged 20 to 26. That was what I relied on. But because of what happened to me in Montenegro, events that were totally out of my control, I started walking along the path known as the Christian faith. It was a spirituality that I'm familiar with. Having grown up in a Christian household, it's got its flaws. And sometimes people have turned it sideways. But for me, personally, it was something that kept my head above water over the last five years, every week, possibly every day, there has been something that reminded me that I'm precious. I'm not my work. I'm not my social media. I'm not how I look. I'm not what other people think of me. I'm not my reputation. I am love simply because I exist, because something good, benevolent and all powerful. Something Christians called God created me and has a purpose for me. Is that crazy to believe? Maybe, but maybe not.

Anita Wing Lee 12:26
Now, I have a very special guest for this finale. My mom, Faith Lee, known to more people as passed her faithfully, but to me, she's mom. She's going to share her side of the story. Okay, Mom, what did you think when I was exploring?

Faith Lee 12:50
When you're exploring, okay, yeah, my experience is very horrible. I'm so weary, so afraid that something bad happened to you because you're traveling on your own, and also the experience also. I'm pursuing, even crushing it on my own faith. I said, What's wrong with me? I'm a pastor maximun as pastor, and we do everything we can and and to raise you up. And, and then I will question what was wrong in my upbringing? You? And yeah, there's a lot of including self doubts. And, and sometimes I go, Oh, should I stay as a pastor, my own kids are like this. They are so and that it is it is it is troublesome.

Anita Wing Lee 13:40
During those years when I was traveling, I knew that my parents didn't approve. But the best way I can describe why I kept traveling, was that I did it out of equal parts, curiosity, courage, inspiration, but also desperation, I felt betrayed by my parents and Christianity. So why would I go back into the house of the one who had betrayed me. And the more I traveled, the more I found good and kind people who encouraged me. So I kept going. Now I can see that this is also the power of grief and trauma, if we don't know how to process them, or we don't give ourselves a chance to we'll spend our whole lives running away. So mom, what did you do while I was traveling?

Faith Lee 14:32
And so we keep in prayer. So there were a lot of nights and days that we poor, my husband and I kneel down so many nights so many days with our hearts burden. It could that burden come in anytime could the middle of the night or middle of the day, or when first swing my wake up. But this is at that time we feel very close with God to because we were so desperate i I got asked God to protect you to help you bring you back. Nothing we can do. So it is actually that that low pond is our time that we just getting hold of. Okay, God's hand. And yeah.

Anita Wing Lee 15:16
Then what did you think when I came back to Toronto?

Faith Lee 15:21
Amazing. You from traveling and even before you travel, you have us a letter. Remember that? You said that the letter, you are not sure what you believe. So you kind of take off searching your own journey. And especially when you post things online, you about mention not the God we believe so its going to different direction. And when you come back, and you were at church, I said this amazing from one end to the other, to just needing you, bless you. And just surprise for us.

Anita Wing Lee 16:05
I actually forgot about this. But I did do this. Sometimes in university when it was clear to me that I wasn't going to be a Christian anymore. I wrote my parents a letter. Really, my parents function when I was forced to live and write loving way of communicating with them, that I respect with them, I needed to go my own way. I needed to find my truth. I didn't want to have a discussion. We weren't really a type of family are much better. Chinese families, they don't talk. They'll talk at each other. But obviously that also depends on individual personality. I knew there was some weird brokenness in my relationship with my parents. But I didn't know how to fix them. So I wrote a letter. What do you think about my journey Now?

Faith Lee 17:14
I see that God, just God is so amazing. Okay, from you grew up at a church to when you grew up at a church for since like, baby, I bring you to church, this is your baby. And then from the time you you walk away from God, and then from now you coming back and your faith and now God. And you even not just studying in Tyndale even work at Tyndale to say God has this open door to you to share your faith. I don't know what God will unfold, but I say very positive is very unlimited. And I'm sure God use your sharing your blessing to bless other who are struggling in the journey. So I can't wait. Yeah.

Anita Wing Lee 18:06
Obviously, my parents are proud of me now. But as you heard, they were the opposite of proud for quite a while. They were ashamed of me. And I knew they were ashamed of me. And I didn't want to shame them. So that's probably another reason I just kept traveling. Today, I can finally say that I've forgiven my parents, I have forgiven God. And I have forgiven myself. I forgive my parents for not letting me go to Hillsong when I was in high school, I don't think that they knew how to communicate with me any differently when I was a teenager. And I don't think they knew the depth of what I was wrestling through. I forgive them because they were doing the best that they knew how and it was probably God's will that I didn't go. And I forgive myself for getting so upset at them. I forgive myself for how I responded by just closing up and shutting everyone out. I have forgiven myself because I held grudges and I got angry. I give myself compassion because that was the only way I knew how to respond. And I forgive God. I was angry at him for so long for not allowing me to go to Hillsong now I can see that God has been working things out all along. Because my parents didn't let me go to Hillsong in Australia when I was 18 I got upset and I started to travel on my own. And because I had a lot of emotional baggage to sort out and because I traveled I started to figure out how to blog. And because of that I became a content creator. And because of all that you are hearing the story right now. And this story with exactly its twists and turns, and the kind of person that it's formed me into today. Now I can see so clearly that God has been working things out all along, and he still is. So Mom, how has your belief in God changed through this?

Faith Lee 20:20
And as I share that the hardest time is when you are traveling, and I don't know where you are, you're just by yourself, a girl, a single person. So that is really worry. And I And during that time I, I, I read as much as I can, how to help. One walk away from God to come back. And those reading will help me analysis to follow those reading. And those suggestions. And I almost do everything about this. And in my journey, that if I find that God is faithful, God doesn't got to answer our prayer in his time in his way. And yeah, I just feel more. More, more belief in God, they are more stronger faith in God, God is so real. And also I trust God, no matter what we put in prayer, God will answer prayer. So I always tell my parenting and the church, I always tell people that don't worry about it. Like adult parents, they were a teenager that they were so worried about in university, I said, just keep praying, and God will unfold his plan. And yeah, this is this is that helps me in this journey.

Anita Wing Lee 21:45
Now that you've witnessed some of my journey, what would you say to someone who has friends or family members who are questioning their beliefs?

Faith Lee 21:53
I think this is this is part of the journey. Yes. Challenging their own faith, having questioned it, this is absolutely normal and naturally is good. Then they, they find the answer, they grow our way, they become stronger in faith. So why now I feel more as I share that, in my teaching, to trust into the family, I always give them the freedom to explore and let them explore. Don't just like the top down faith, it doesn't work. And they will, the more you do it, the more they go away. And so it needs to be embrace that embrace the journey to seeking their faith.

Anita Wing Lee 22:43
When you think back to my journey, what do you think now?

Faith Lee 22:47
I just want to say thank God. And I just want to say I'm proud of Anita now. No favoritism that I feel is even stronger than me. And so always stay really, okay, encourage me. And just Yeah, I just feel very positive. Can we? What Can God what we got bless her and continue and follow his plan through her to bless others?

Anita Wing Lee 23:16
This is a big one I need to ask, and makes me a bit uncomfortable. But I have to say it, what if my beliefs change? Obviously, my beliefs have changed from the time I was 20 to 25 till now. So chances are my beliefs will continue to evolve. How do you think you would respond, then?

Faith Lee 23:36
I think I just keep on praying. Okay. And we didn't see the end yet. But God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. So and I think even exploring a faith is a very big spectrum. And we need to allow that and her is an individual grow up. So I need to respect that.

Anita Wing Lee 24:01
How has all of this affected you?

Faith Lee 24:05
Yeah, I just, I have my own belief, I am more when bad things happen. I said God out in May the number one God truly has a way to turn things around. And just like my daughter, and Anita, no one can change him except the Holy Spirit. And he did. So it gave me confidence that yeah, and hope as long as that person still alive. God can work in that person. So I feel more at ease to trusting God, what's happening in the future. And I need to keep reminding that yeah, if God can change and Anita can change anyone to and yeah, so I just I just trusting God, God is good all the time. In all the time. God is so so so good.

Anita Wing Lee 24:59
Okay, this one makes me even more uncomfortable. But I have to ask What if one day I stop being Christian? Will you disown me?

Faith Lee 25:11
I think even among cushion ality the spectrum of theology it is. So while spread to you, and I need to have the posture to learn this to understand what you understand. And I'm I am learning to. So I, I will come to a posture that more open minded and first try to understand first before always say that oh, right or wrong? Don't box our God. Okay, God is so big. And then maybe your exploration in your exploring God, you learned something that I need to learn to sew? Yeah, it is I come in a way that I need to open my mind my heart to learn more. Yeah, I need to learn from you too.

Anita Wing Lee 26:12
I'm acutely aware that not everyone is going to get this kind of closure or reconciliation with their parents. I asked my mom, will you disown me, because it's taken me a while to make peace with the fact that my worth is not contingent on my parents being proud of me, or agreeing with my spiritual beliefs. The fact that I ended up working in Christian organizations helped in reconciling things with my parents. But I know there are people who might never get that kind of reconciliation. Or if you're in the middle of it, it can be really uncomfortable. It's awkward. And you have to learn how to live your life without your parents. And it's painful. And this whole process is messy, and it could take years. So if you're still going through this process, we could call it deconstruction. I like to call it seeking the truth. Because that's what it was for me. I asked Dr. Helen Noh, the registered psychotherapist and professor of counseling we heard from an episode to to share her thoughts on this.

Dr. Helen Noh 27:19
You know, I absolutely firm that, you know, the passage that always comes to me is you know, Jesus wept, you know, when he, you know, when he was coming, and just even standing before Lazarus, right, he knew he was gonna raise Lazarus, but yet, he wept. And so, you know, it reminds us that Jesus weeps with us, you know, we live in a broken, we live in that tension, where there still brokenness and pain, right, we always hold on to the promise that there will be a time when it all will be made new that there will be final victory. But unfortunately, we do live in that in between time and in that in between time, there's still going to be pain, they're still gonna be suffering, they're still gonna be where we pray and pray and pray, and we will not be healed, we will not be released. But the promise that God gives to us is that he'll walk with us, He will weep with us, you know, those who are still struggling with that depression. God is weeping with you, God is with you, he is journeying with you.

Dr. Helen Noh 28:24
So even though we may not experience that healing on this side, the truth is that God is still walking with us. And it's not contingent on how hard we prayed. You know, we'll never understand why some people do get healed fully, and why some others don't. But what we do know for sure is, is that God is with us. And I think that, you know, at times, it's like, more than the actual outcome. Sometimes I think regardless that, that is what people ultimately really, you know, and I think that's why sometimes God, you know, when we're journeying through it, you know, I say to them, it's not about I know that we want to pray for the outcome to be full healing. But you know, more than that, how much are we really coming to know deeper, who God is in the goodness of God and the presence of God, and the fact that he is journeying and weeping with us, but He will give us what we need to get through this.

Anita Wing Lee 29:22
For me, the first signs that God was with me even in my weeping came through the kind gracious hospitality that I received while traveling solo. I made friends who took me under their wing, they encouraged me, sat me down at their kitchen table and told me I was family. And all of these people were non Christians. But when I came back to Toronto and wasn't even sure if God was good, he made it clear that he was still with me when I got the job at the church, like here Anita, let me pay you while you take your time in this spiritual rehab. Then when I decided to study at 10 down, that job gave me the time to study. And God showed up in a really big way with the house. But the house doesn't mean as much to me personally as it might to some people, I really felt God with me when I experienced this profound joy in giving muffins. I look now at what God has done in my life, I went from feeling like a total failure to now seeing that God has gifts he's put in me, and things he still wants me to do in the world.

Anita Wing Lee 30:38
I look back at who I used to be my 21 year old self, who sat on buses and backpacks her way across Tanzania, or the 25 year old Anita, who made videos with her phone, jumping around retreat centers in Europe. Neither of those people could have even imagined what it would feel like to be 30 Something in EDA, I didn't know how to look ahead. I just felt like I needed to make the top 25 under 25, or top 30 under 30. Or else I was worthless. But as I keep letting my old self die, integrating parts of her and letting God make me new. I want to know what 35 year old Anita might be like. There is a version of Anita that only exists in the mind and heart of God. And she is far better than I could create on my own. With all the self help books, productivity hacks, even therapy. I believe there is a version of a needle that only Christ in me can create. And so I keep hanging out in Christian waters. And I keep hanging out with the painter, because I want her I want the Anita that is so much better than me.

Anita Wing Lee 32:00
I believe that my very best hope for having my life matter is paradoxically dying to myself now, and giving God the reins to my life. To My Heart to my soul to my mind. I occasionally catch glimpses of why a 35 year old Anita might be like, but what about 38 year old and EDA? 4050 year old Anita? I can't even imagine. Yeah. I just want the media that God is creating. Because whoever she is, she is kinder, more gracious of bold, more wise, generous and good than who I am right now. And I cannot create her. It cannot well her into being. I can only surrender myself into God's hands and trust him to create me. I want the version of Anita that is more and more like Jesus. And that's where it stops being about me. I am but a moth drawn to the flame. I'm a magnet who's found it's I'm a heart who's found her home, a child who's found her father and a princess who's found her King.

Anita Wing Lee 33:22
Last fall while I was at the faith driven conference, and getting so inspired hearing from all these businesses and Christian entrepreneurs, Dr. James Tyler Robertson, my professor of Christian history at Tyndale emailed me. He asked if I had time to chat about a possible role. I had a zoom call with him a couple days later. And he offered me a job. I thought I already had a new job, the one at the radio station. But it was now September, exactly nine months from when I had felt God tell me, I'd have a new job in nine months. I guess this is it.

Anita Wing Lee 34:03
Other than helping to put Tyndale's online courses together, Dr. Robertson had another project in mind for me: a podcast. He had this idea to create a podcast for the university. In a brainstorming session with our small creative team. We sketched out different concepts and landed on deconstruction. I'll never forget this one Friday, where we were doing a test episode. And it just wasn't working out. My instinct told me that this podcast was going to stop. This was going to be a painful thing to create. I had this sinking feeling in my gut when I drove home that Friday afternoon. And I still felt that when I woke up Saturday morning, I felt like I knew what would make this podcast pop. What would make it really resonate with people. So in a burst of inspiration sitting on my bed that morning, I quickly sketched out an entire season. I drew a row of boxes on the page and put different events from my life in each box centered around different themes that I would discuss any chip sewed all around the concept of deconstruction. Yes, this is what I would create if I could.

Anita Wing Lee 35:22
But this podcast wasn't supposed to be about me. I just started the job. And this podcast was about the experts at Tyndale and the ways that they could shed light on deconstruction. Oh, well, I'm glad I got it out. I felt better already. Okay, God, this is yours. I give it to you. I give it to you. And I release it. If you ever want me to tell my story, it's here and you know it, this inspiration is from you. So I surrender it to you. This podcast is not mine, it's yours. I will produce whatever podcast Dr. Robertson asks of me, because you're the one who's given me this job. This podcast is an assignment from you anyway. So I'll try to do it as obediently and faithfully as you ask of me. This isn't about what I want. This is about what you want. And with that prayer, the burden lifted. that sinking feeling in my stomach went away. This podcast wasn't up to me anymore, and just need to follow and obey whatever God asks of me. I put the page with my episodes away. No one else ever needs to see this. Because God has seen it. And that's enough. A few days later on Tuesday, my phone rings. And it's Dr. Robertson.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 36:49
Anita was wondering, do you want to make this podcast about your story?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:01
That first podcast was so bad. Was so I felt sick to my stomach.

Anita Wing Lee 37:12
Oh, really glad you say that. Because of the time I was just like, Oh, I'm screwed up to make this podcast.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:19
Oh, I rubbed my temples. And like you I was like, it was it was a Friday. Like, I can't think about this on Saturday, it's my day off, and just gotta let it go. But I think it's fair to say that it all worked out.

Anita Wing Lee 37:35
It did work out. So welcome to the unpolished section of season one of heavenly minded earthly good. This is the finale. And normally we do seven minutes. But today, we're just going to do five.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 37:49
And we're currently at four and a half minutes left.

Anita Wing Lee 37:51
Because we're going to do an extended unpolished, myself Anita Wing Lee and Dr. James Tyler Robertson are going to have a much longer conversation. So so check out the next episode for that. But for now, let's spend a few minutes and yeah, we did it. Wow.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 38:07
Wow. Okay. First few things that pop into my mind one. Yeah, give your mom a hug. So sweet. But you know what? Speaking, I think she really opened up something that we need to we haven't really addressed and I think should be in this in this moment right now. Is it's tempting, as always, when we go through these things like well, we'll say deconstruction, when we're coming to different places and our thoughts and our lives in our behaviors. It's always tempting to think that those who are for example, were opposed or like you're talking about your journey with with your own family. It's very compelling to sort of see them and evangelicalism for sure. But Christianity throughout its history, has been very willing to put contrary thinkers into the camp of the enemy, or as into somehow less intelligent, less involved, literally calling them less Christian, they have a dead Christianity. And to a certain extent, of course, that's true.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 39:04
But I think for those who are going through deconstruction, when you get to this unbelievable space that you're in when you process stuff when you've healed, it's not a process you can rush through, but remembering that hearing your mom how much she loves you, I was reminded again that a lot of the pushback or the concern about deconstruction does come from people who love the people deconstructing and are scared because they're afraid they're gonna give up or lose something that is incredibly precious and beautiful. Like she said, she raised you to be a follower of Christ and it broke her heart. The idea that what did I do wrong? What have I done wrong? And on a like, as a dad, it gets me emotional. That got me I was like, I get it. There's a love there. And I think if we could we could, deconstruction could be a beautiful spot if both sides recognize that the other isn't necessarily right or wrong, but But people are trying to come to their understanding of Christ in their own way. And yeah, it was, it was a great, great interview with your mom.

Anita Wing Lee 40:07
My mom, sometimes I say to her that I am where I'm at now, because she probably prayed so much harder for me. Like, I mean, this is going away, but she probably prayed a lot harder for me than for my other siblings, just out of love and fear. And, you know, to what you're saying about their fear. I had the exact same fear on my side. And it was a real fear because I, the way I compared it back then was it's like being a pastor and having your teenage daughter get pregnant. Like, sure what, what do you do? Right? I don't know what those pastors do. But we don't really hear about them that often. Yeah. Because they have to work through the shame, the confusion, the looks, and and I tried to spare my parents some of that in a weird way, by staying away from them. And so it's been a number of years, right, some of that I was a university student. And then when I became when I graduated, and was like, working full time, but still not following Christ. Then it became it wasn't just about travel anymore. It was about like, oh, what does it need to believe and it was so inconvenient for me that I chose to be an online content creator. And so what I felt called to do in my heart was to publish content online and spirituality and faith was a topic that always resonated with me.

Anita Wing Lee 41:30
So like, it was so inconvenient to me, that my parents were pastors, there was actually a time where I just felt like God was trying to play a big practical joke on me like most people, when they say they're a pastor's kid. They mean that their dad is a pastor. For me. Both of my parents are pastors. My dad's a pastor of a Chinese congregation, and has been for 30 plus years. My mom is a children's pastor, but she's also an ordained reverend. And I was just like, it's so not fair. Why couldn't they just be dentists? And I could say whatever I want online, but obviously that is played into my life.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 42:04
That's it. We're about the five minutes right now. I love my parents be dentists so good. You know what? I don't have a question or anything. But for the listeners on this our last episode before we're going to unpack the whole season, in our in our bonus on polishes that we're gonna call it ended. I like that. This is not a question or anything, I just any of the listeners out there family dynamics, no matter what your faith background are, always are always tricky and require a lot of unpacking, especially as we start to see our parents as just human beings. But for anybody out there listening, that is struggling with issues around your family, because maybe your parents or your spouse, or whoever else isn't as gracious as your parents ended up and just pray and let you kind of go on this journey, and then have to unpack a whole bunch of stuff as you come back. But sometimes that's not an option for everybody.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 42:54
So understand in the first communities when Jesus said stuff like, you know, when he's in the house and was packed, and somebody said, your mother and brothers are here, and he said, Who is my mom, who are my brothers. The people that follow the will of God are my family. That wasn't just, you know, one mean to marry, or to just pie in the sky sort of thinking, for the earliest believers in Jesus as the Messiah, many were excommunicated from the Jewish faith. And to have something that that written in, for example, the gospel of Mark, was to remind the people that were first hearing these stories, that they were a family, that they had family, that they belonged, and that they had a story to be told about them that they were princes and princesses. They weren't just up from the mud, or being dropped in the mud, which is what many families did. So you are not alone listener. Many, many are going through it. And you belong. And you're not just out of the mud.

Anita Wing Lee 43:49
Yeah. And like I shared somehow God, God will still make sure that you're never alone, which is a beautiful thing that I can say now having having walked on. A couple of I wouldn't say both sides, because it's not just two roads. There's a lot of roads. All right, we'll save the rest for the extended unpolished. Thank you for listening.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 44:11
Thank you for listening. Now we can dig into the whole season one or we can call it season one.

Anita Wing Lee 44:16
Yes. Heavenly minded earthly good is the production of Tyndale University. Visit our website for more information