Heavenly Minded Earthly Good

Anita Wing Lee 00:00
Heavenly Minded Earthly Good deals with topics including but not limited to drama, self harm, suicide, grief, and other painful issues. Listener discretion is advised.

Anita Wing Lee 00:14
It was like a scene I had lifted off Instagram and made my reality. It was the summer of 2017 I just arrived in the white villa, I rent it off of Airbnb. Tucked in the rolling hills of Montenegro in Eastern Europe and surrounded by turquoise waters. I was in my paradise, a 10 minute walk from the Adriatic Sea. I planned to spend the next month making videos for my YouTube channel. I was 26 and stoked after finishing video projects in Spain and Paris.

Anita Wing Lee 00:45
After years of trying, I felt like I was finally hitting my stride as a traveling content creator. I had done everything to make my life picture perfect, and I had the Instagram account to prove it. My social media following was treated two pictures from tropical rainforests, mountain tops, cosmopolitan cities, and the world's most scenic destinations. I was proud that I had avoided being chained to a desk and had figured out how to work from my laptop and live anywhere. And this was before the pandemic so remote work was not as common.

Anita Wing Lee 01:21
I saw a few bold bloggers pioneering this new way to work and I wanted to be one of them. But then, everything fell apart. After a few days of sketching ideas, eating feta cheese and swimming at sunset, I sank into a hollow void. It was more than depression. It was like I lost my ability to think and be happy. I couldn't seem to experience joy. I felt like I was being dragged into a spiritual abyss, a no man's land between here and hell. A stream of terrifying thoughts came through my mind and I was hit by a wave after wave of shame.

Anita Wing Lee 02:08
I was shown that everything I had done out of good in my life, and an attempt to be a good person and to do good in the world. All of that was actually motivated by this brokenness inside me. Like I had created all this content, and constructed this identity on social media because I was a sad, pitiful, lonely person inside. What have I been doing with my life? Someone or something was taking my consciousness and flipping it inside out upside down. I couldn't stop the stream of terrifying thoughts every day. It just got worse. Surrounded by vacationers, children laughing while they were eating ice cream. I was being eaten by this darkness.

Anita Wing Lee 02:57
I had a vague idea of what was happening. I'd heard of artists hitting rough patches. I'd heard of the shadow side, determined psychology for the part of ourselves that we hide, deny or repress. I'd heard of rockstars selling their soul to the devil to get famous. And I knew there had to be some truth to that statement, because right now, I couldn't even feel my soul. I was emptied of it. And you knowingly the human body existed but in need of the soul. She was flattened, gone, erased, and I couldn't get her back. For the first time ever. After years of travel and being to Africa and Southeast Asia. I also got food poisoning and was vomiting Greek yogurt. If this got any worse, I would kill myself. I couldn't think straight I couldn't see who I was. I knew that this was something spiritual. And because I wasn't on drugs. I hadn't been drinking. I was totally sober and healthy. But something else was controlling my mind.

Anita Wing Lee 04:02
It was clear to me I couldn't go forward. I couldn't keep traveling and forget making videos. Something intelligent, something who knew me had found me in Eastern Europe and it was getting my attention. It had been a long time since I said prayers of salvation as a kid. But right now, I needed salvation. So I prayed the most sincere prayer I had ever prayed. Digging my blue pen into my journal. I wrote God, I surrender my life to you. Then I booked a flight back to Toronto. This life that I had dreamt up and created a life I loved and that connected me with 1000s of people around the world, some of whom had become my friends and supported me for years. It was over.

Anita Wing Lee 05:02
Sitting 30,000 feet above the Atlantic Ocean. I knew I was about to face the two things I feared most, and had managed to avoid for a long time, God and an office job. My two greatest fears were combined into one, when a few months after arriving in Toronto, I ended up with a job at a church, Holy Spirit, I'm asking that you would just come. I wasn't even sure if I was a Christian or what I believed about God. But God or something like it had plucked me off a mountain in Europe, and plopped me in front of a computer at a church. Like, inject, cut and paste. From the outside, I was perfectly healthy and functional. But inside I was a twist and not mixed in with my philosophical, spiritual and existential questions. I was resentful, bitter, angry, humiliated and ashamed. Where had I gone wrong? Am I being punished? Working in a church, I set the perfect stage for me to deconstruct my faith. Now that I was being paid by a church, I really needed to get to the bottom of God. What's his problem? What's this Christianity thing? I had a very simple starting point. I think God is real. Beyond that everything else was up in the air.

Anita Wing Lee 06:39
Tyndale University presents, heavenly minded earthly good. deconstruction is the word commonly used for the process of critically dissecting your Christian beliefs.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 06:50
For some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word of backsliding or apostasy or heresy it.

Anita Wing Lee 06:58
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human.

Dr. Helen Noh 07:06
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational areas. This podcast

Anita Wing Lee 07:16
follows my personal journey through deconstruction. Along the way, we're going to chat with professors, pastors, psychologists, researchers, historians, and artists.

Tara Jean Stevens 07:27
But I was still really struggling with the fact that if I was wrong, I might be going to help.

Anita Wing Lee 07:35
We'll explore the questions so many of us have about Christianity, the stuff you probably didn't feel comfortable bringing up on Sunday at youth group or small group. I'm your host and guide for this journey. And Nita wing Lee. I invite you to go on this journey with me with an open mind and an open heart. It's going to be most worthwhile if we can be brave, and honest, I promised I will be. We're going to explore the parts of Christianity that may have failed us or hurt us, but also the parts that continue to encourage us. Christianity continues to be the world's largest religion. So let's figure out what this is all about. They call it deconstruction, but I call it seeking the truth.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 08:25
Right. So deconstruction is a buzzword of this day and age. And for some in the church deconstruction is kind of the new bad word of backsliding or apostasy or heresy is people that are challenging the faith and losing their faith. For others. It's a great word to explain their journey out of the church, perhaps so they were raised in the church, and they had to take a bunch of stuff that that harm them that didn't make sense to them, and deconstructing it is the word they give for their journey outside of the church. And like all buzzwords, it kind of forces a dichotomy kind of forces, you're either with us or against us. If you ask these questions, and you're deconstructing, and everybody goes. And then if you're on the outside, deconstruction can only take you to a path that leads you outside of the church. But like all words, the definition matters. So how else can we define this term that allows a space for genuine questions without the inevitable conclusion that Well, that's it, I'm done with Christianity. So maybe we can look at deconstruction as as an intentional scrutiny of your Christian beliefs. And I think that makes that sets us free to have like a really powerful discussion, and honor some legitimate questions and some legitimate criticisms.

Anita Wing Lee 09:39
That's Dr. James Tyler Robertson, a professor of Christian history, pastor and author of the book overlooked the Forgotten origins of Canadian Christianity. At the end of each episode, I chat a little bit more with him and we offer up some questions for you to explore and digest. You can really deconstruct anything what your parents taught you science history. But when it comes to the Christian faith, deconstruction usually means asking questions and demanding answers to a huge range of issues from the theological to the practical, like, how does God forgive sins? And does the Bible conflict with science? deconstruction is also facing hard truths, like admitting that some versions of Christianity contribute to things like nationalism, racism, sexism, and abuse. There are former rockstars and former Christian authors who have publicly announced that they're no longer Christian.

Josh Harris 10:36
For 17 years, I was a pastor there. And then this summer, you went on Instagram, and said, essentially, I don't believe. By all the measurements that I have for defining a Christian. I'm not a Christian.

Anita Wing Lee 10:50
That's former evangelical leader Josh Harris, getting interviewed on HBO on renouncing Christianity. It's almost become fashionable to disown Christianity. Plus, deconstruction is unavoidable these days. Let's face it, there's so much information at our fingertips. It's not hard to find something that can contradict any belief. There are two historical trends that stand out and have contributed to the prevalence of deconstruction in our society. They are Protestantism and the enlightenment.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 11:24
For any Christian new even considers himself a Protestant. I mean, the answers right the name it's literally a protestant.

Anita Wing Lee 11:31
The Protestant Reformation and created a new Christian tradition based on a refined set of Christian beliefs.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 11:38
All denominations that call Protestantism their home, were born out of a profound and world altering experiment in deconstruction.

Anita Wing Lee 11:49
One of the key tenants of Protestantism is sola scriptura, and sola fide, which means only scripture and only faith. This created a Christian faith, that was much more individualistic than the other two big traditions in Christianity, Eastern Orthodox and Catholicism, which both have a bigger focus on community. Within the Protestant Reformation and the movement that followed, evangelicalism began to form and with it this sense that you needed to be personally reborn into the faith. This made the Christian faith something that an individual could personally decide. And so the flip side of that is that an individual can also personally decide to leave the faith. Another big historical trend that contributes to the deconstruction we see today is the enlightenment, the enlightenment, put reason and rationalism right to the forefront and made it the new authority. Instead of looking to the Bible, or church authority as authority, we now look to science and facts. And we take it for granted that this is the way the world is.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 12:59
At its essence, the Enlightenment is not just asking different questions, but actually realizing that humans have the ability to find some answers. This is the birth of the scientific method of recognizing that the universe and laws within the universe can be discoverable through through study. This is advances in technology advances in literature advances and literacy, advances in communication and transportation, but the big legacy of the Enlightenment, we had to summarize it, it's the gift of a rational exploration of laws and regulations that actually can yield answers and answers that benefit more than just the person asking them It benefits the world because thanks to the enlightenment, we have things like penicillin, we have bridges, we have flight, we have the internet, we have all these different things. Obviously, the other side of that is our understanding of what is truth, for example, has also been put through that those parameters.

Anita Wing Lee 14:02
In this day and age, we're wired to want explanations. And that means deconstruction is not going away anytime soon. I asked Dr. Patrick Franklin, professor of theology, president of the Canadian scientific and Christian affiliation, and author of the book being human being church, about deconstruction, he gave me this incredible portrait of what it means to deconstruct.

Patrick Franklin 14:27
We can ask even hard questions, even difficult questions of God in the presence of God. image that comes to mind is my father in law, you know, he saw some really horrific stuff in his life that I won't go into but one of the beautiful pictures I have is hearing about him as a young boy and maybe eight or 10 going to the lake and he went to the lake to or to the to the ocean, to throw rocks at God. I just think that's a beautiful image, this little boy throwing rocks at God and to me, that's him. of faithfulness, because he's not just throwing rocks, like he's not throwing them, you know, at a wall, he's not throwing them at people. He's not throwing them at his own friends or enemies or his own tradition. He's throwing them at God. So he's actually taking his anger. And the anger is legitimate, and he's throwing it at God. So it's like being angry at God, before God and with God. And to me, that's a cool version of deconstruction,

Anita Wing Lee 15:26
You could say, I'm someone who always wanted to throw rocks at God, but never thought I was allowed. The problem is, as you get older, and you learn more, there are only more questions. It started when I was a teenager. And I wanted to know why my Chinese Christian Church seemed so flat compared to the videos I saw of other churches worshiping, where people had their hands up and moved. And then a really big rock began to form when my parents didn't let me go to study at Hillsong College. At the time, Hillsong Church was the only place where I saw people worshipping freely. And that's where I wanted to go. But they suggested I go and get a normal undergrad first. And I could go to Bible school or Hillsong after. This blew my mind. I couldn't understand why my parents who were pastors and still are, wouldn't let me go and study something Christian, I thought this would be a pastor's dream. If the God that I was listening to was different from the God that my parents were listening to them, clearly this God wasn't something that I could trust or believe in anymore. This resentment and anger just grew until by the time I left high school, I knew I wouldn't be stepping foot in a church for a long time, if ever. I was curious to hear what suggestions Dr. Patrick Franklin had for where someone should start in their process of deconstruction,

Patrick Franklin 17:00
I would say engage the tradition. And what I mean by this is, I hear more and more people who are deconstructing their faith in such a way that what it is they're deconstructing is probably something that's only about 50 years old. And I've heard many others so so sometimes people will go away away from their faith, or like, let's say, way away from the evangelical tradition. And you listen, and you're like, Oh, that's so tragic. Because they maybe didn't go far enough. And sometimes I've heard one person I heard and particularly actually, who reconnected to faith by reconnecting with like the Eastern Orthodox tradition. And one of the things that this guy said, he's actually a priest in eighth North Eastern Orthodox tradition. Now, he said, I got this sense that I simply wasn't told the whole story. I was told pieces of the story. And so as I began to deconstruct evangelicalism, or Christianity or however you want to put it, what you're really deconstructing is something that's probably 50 to 100 years old, maybe came into focus in the 1980s, and has since had a huge cultural impact, I would just encourage, go back to the tradition of the faith.

Anita Wing Lee 18:13
Personally, I was someone who, like Patrick's friend had the sense that there was more to Christianity, then I was taught. And I had this sense, even as a teenager, before I could explain it. And I think before any adults even believed me, but I knew it down to my bones, there had to be more to Christianity.

Patrick Franklin 18:36
There's broadening your horizons to see the Christianity is much, much older than 21st century. You know, evangelicalism or post evangelicalism, so find ways to reconnect to the depth of the Christian tradition. This is a rich, ancient and wide tradition with many resources for thinking about life. These are people that have lived through plagues, who've lived through empires and oppression, who've lived through probably, you know, more than anything we could personally list. And so sometimes that's become way too truncated. And what we get are the cliches and the kind of, I don't know, chapters version of, you know, here's the self help Christianity with three easy steps to this and five easy steps to that. Their tradition is just so much richer than that.

Anita Wing Lee 19:27
Okay, let me be honest. On one hand, Dr. Franklin's advice is spot on. As I've studied the history of Christianity, I can see that everything that I questioned has also been questioned by hundreds of people over the centuries. So I'm not doing anything new by asking these questions. In fact, I'm in good company when I'm asking these questions. But engaging the tradition is a monumental task. For example, one of my biggest questions was, why are there so many Christian denominations? Why are there so many versions of Christianity? It used to annoy me that there could be seven Christian churches on the same street, and they didn't talk to each other. But when you look at it globally, there are a staggering 45,000 denominations. So you can see that trying to understand the tradition of Christianity is no simple task. I've already been doing this for several years, and I'm only beginning to scratch the surface. And that's just time spent deconstructing the Christian tradition, not to mention time I've spent deconstructing other non Christian spiritualities.

Anita Wing Lee 20:39
So human to human, I want to acknowledge that this takes time. Whether you enroll in a full time studies, or you take online courses, watch tons of YouTube videos, or you attempt to have a conversation with your pastor, or you go to the library and take out a stack of religion books, engaging with the tradition of Christianity is, yes, deeply fulfilling and helpful. But it's also going to take up a substantial amount of cognitive energy and time.

Anita Wing Lee 21:12
You might be wondering, what's the point of talking about deconstruction? Why not leave the people who have those nagging, philosophical questions to hang out on the periphery and sort themselves out? Shouldn't Christians who believe just get on with it and go evangelize or preach instead? Aren't we just making it more confusing by bringing all these details into Christianity? Not only is it valid to ask questions about Christianity, it's also important because if Christianity isn't worth our time, there are plenty of better things to do with our lives.

Anita Wing Lee 21:49
Personally, I had a several things I really wanted to wrestle through. I wanted to know if religion, as Karl Marx said, is the opium of the people. Because if I was wasting my time working in this church, I was happy to go back to the life I had, I could change jobs get paid a whole lot more, and go back to building a cool career and moving countries every few months.

Anita Wing Lee 22:14
Although I was working in a church, I honestly wasn't sure if God was something good to have in my life. After all, the only reason I entertained the concept of God in my life now was because something terrible had happened to me in Montenegro. The life I had dreamt up had fallen apart. And I didn't know whether I should blame God, or run to God for salvation. At the same time, I wanted to know why other people stuck around. I sensed that there might be something true behind Christianity, like there was a reality that it pointed to.

Anita Wing Lee 22:50
After all, I had prayed and Montenegro. And now there was this strange coincidence that I was working in a church and a job that I probably would have gotten, had I actually gone to Bible college after high school. Sure, maybe I was a couple years late, but God had found a way to put me in this job anyway. Getting to the bottom of Christianity also mattered to me because the religion of the West, this implicit religion of our consumerist, individualistic culture, wasn't something I wanted to live by either one way or another, I was going to have to choose the values and principles that I would rebuild my new life on. And I didn't like the options that marketing and advertising were giving me. Most importantly, I just wanted to move forward with my life. Although I could work at this church for a while without clarity on what I believed, I couldn't do it forever. It took up a lot of mental and emotional energy to compartmentalize and constantly sift through ideas. sussing out if I was crazy, or if they were crazy. And in the long term, that's not a healthy way to live. If Christianity was real or true, then yeah, I wanted to know that too. I needed hope, for my life, and for the world. Dr. Helen No, a professor of psychology and a counselor explained to me that there are a lot of layers to what makes us human. And it's the integration of these layers that leads to healing and wholeness.

Dr. Helen Noh 24:27
What makes up a person is things like their cognitive layers, right? Their emotional layers, their behavioral layers and their relational layers. And so yet we recognize as Christians that at the core is our spiritual layers, and even the field of psychology is actually now moving towards a greater recognition that there is a spiritual layer of the human person. And so when we talk about more of a psychological paradigm, though, we do focus a lot more on the cognitive, emotional, behavioral, and relational and those are the kinds of layers that psychology touches upon, but where, you know, I really You know, believe is the integration, sort of the integrative perspective, which also recognizes at the core is our spiritual layer. And so how does that sort of play into all of this both in formation, how we understand pathology, and also how we understand healing as well.

Anita Wing Lee 25:15
Churches tend to assume that deconstruction is an intellectual issue. But it's intertwined with all these other layers of what makes us human. It's why saying something like, you just gotta keep reading your Bible fixates on a behavioral part of someone's belief. But it doesn't address the other reasons they might be deconstructing. I wasn't sure if working in a church meant that I was in a cage. Or if this cage was locked, or unlocked, I was afraid to live with God. And without God, I didn't want to invest another 10 years of my life into a career, only to have another spiritual glitch in my reality, and have it all crumble again in 10 years. So I went to seminary because there was nowhere else left for me to go, I was already working in a church, and that wasn't answering enough of my questions. And I had already traveled to the ends of the earth. seminary seemed like a place where I could throw some rocks at God.

Anita Wing Lee 26:22
Welcome to the unpolished part of the podcast where I have seven minutes. What was that?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 26:27
Are you gonna explain what this is about? Or you're gonna do it? Yeah,

Anita Wing Lee 26:29
I'm doing it right now. As I was saying, Welcome to the unpolished part of the podcast where I chat with Dr. James Tyler Robertson. And we've got seven minutes to recap and digest some of this episode and ask some questions.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 26:42
Because I'm a very busy man, I need to do this seven minutes go.

Anita Wing Lee 26:47
Now it's actually because we're both capable of talking really fast. So here we go. So the first thing I'd love for you guys to think about is what did others teach you about asking God questions? Have you ever felt like you couldn't throw rocks at God? I didn't. And I didn't ask God questions for a long time. And it's only been through the process of studying at Tyndale and also doing this podcast that I realized, like there are so many resources out there. And I wish I had started this process earlier.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 27:15
I love this picture of the little boy, I love Dr. Franklin's point there with a little boy throwing the rocks at God. Years ago, I was in a pretty deep emotional crisis, an event that happened you know what, I'm just gonna be candid about it. There was a miscarriage. And I was absolutely devastated. And I went to the backyard, and I had like lawn furniture in my little postage stamp backyard. And I threw a chair in the sky because I was literally trying to hit God in the eye. And I knew it was ridiculous. But it was it was absolutely an essential practice. I think of worship. And I really got the sense of God's like, yep. And he let me throw that chair. So I loved that story, because I was raised in a church where you could ask questions, and but and this is what I'm hoping this podcast does it they were very open with us asking questions, as long as we got to the answers that they thought we should get to. And that always felt a little bit disingenuous. Yeah, disingenuous. That always bothered me. He's like, You're gonna make me ask, I can ask any question I want. As long as the answer I get to his right. Like it felt like a multiple choice kind of thing. And I don't know that that actually is a great spot for for breeding faith. Plus, and Anita wanted to ask me this question, because you wanted me to talk about people in church history, who

Anita Wing Lee 28:27
Asked lots of questions!

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 28:29
That was for unpolished that came off polished, well done.

Anita Wing Lee 28:33
I mean, think about the apostles. They were the first ones who couldn't even understand what Jesus was saying,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 28:39
Well, I don't know if we want to set our bar at the apostles? I mean, through the Gospels, we're at four minutes 55 seconds to say, no, they come across very buffoonish, which is always set me free to embrace my own buffoonery. But I mean, yes, you've got the apostles, of course, I'm being I'm being tongue in cheek here. But I mean, this is this is how we have this thing called Christianity is people taking the Jesus event, this this Jewish peasant who says that he was the Messiah, who performed all these miracles and wonders, then died, then lo and behold, was witnessed coming back from the dead. What do you do with that story? What does that mean? You know, there's, there's Easter Sunday, but what do you do on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, or Thursday, 2000 years later, which is what we're trying to do right now. But throughout this great story of Christianity, we have poets and artists and thinkers, and pastors and dare I even say it, pagans inherit people who are like were considered by the authorities of the day asking these questions and forcing people to answer now, some people did come up with some really janky ideas. But those ideas were how to put this delicately. They were taken down in the schoolyard of public discussion, which is again, why we want people to be able to have the ability to speak and question freely, because the good ideas over time will be revealed to be good ideas. And con versely, the bad ideas over time will be revealed to be bad ideas as well, in that moment, seeing a child throwing a rock at God, out of context, and in that moment could be considered blasphemy. Some might even consider it to be such. But when Patrick Franklin talks about it, you'll see, oh, this is a beautiful act of worship, that context and that time, I think opens up some amazing spaces for us to have these questions and discussions. Three minutes.

Anita Wing Lee 30:26
Well, here's the thing, too, when you are that boy, or that girl throwing those rocks, the last thing I was thinking about is, is trying to worship God, you're just trying to get to the bottom of something that really matters to you. And as I've been going through this process, I've realized there's so much power and clarity, there's something that happens to you when, when you've just made a decision. And you know that it's the best one that you can make right now. And so in this podcast, we're going to be unpacking and looking at deconstruction from a lot of different angles. And I'm not 100% sure where we're going to land in every single one of them. But we're going to see that it's going to take us forward somewhere. Because I think when I look back now, on my journey, I wish that I had started this process sooner. I had questions all through high school and in university, I wanted to study world religions, but I delayed it because I was like, there's more important things I got to do first. And these questions will just keep digging at you. And I think this is just how we're wired. This is how God created us. And honestly, it's kind of fun. Because when I let myself dig into these questions, it's like, oh, some of my, the other things I worry about don't really matter. It's like, I just I just want to figure out this God thing, you know, and then it's kind of fun.

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 31:38
We're just gonna go ahead and figure out God, we got 10 episodes to do it. I'm sure we'll get God wrapped up in boats. We'll have a probably a couple bonus episodes afterwards. I was supposed to ask a question. I forgot what it was. What's the question I'm supposed to ask in this unpolished section that's supposed to be totally organic?

Anita Wing Lee 31:50
It's about giving people space. Like are there questions that they've always wanted to ask God?

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 31:55
Yes. So are there any questions that you've always wanted to ask God? I think that went really well, I don't think anybody will notice that I wasn't prepared for this whatsoever. So the last one minute and 20 seconds. This is where this this whole voice? And if you can do this in a group and have discussions afterwards, we're not trying to tell you how to live your life but what not? Yeah, like let's start throwing stuff and see what sticks throw it against the wall and see what sticks and and what sort of things have been bothering you what sort of places and spaces have you been able to not find the ability to ask a question or just sit back and like, you know, what is always bothered me, dot dot, dot, dot, dot, this is a moment, this is a time where it is. I would say it's incumbent upon us if you are a believer, and wherever you're going to end up through this journey through the journey we call life. I think it's incumbent upon us to recognize there's some validity in the criticism to Christianity, and there's some power and some freedom to be found in the questions. But there be dragons as the old word say, this is a this is a quest. This is a journey, and it's going to require bravery. So thank you, Anita, for for being the guinea pig for all of us. And with 24 seconds left in this unpolished section. What which we say this this first episode, what do you want people to take away?

Anita Wing Lee 33:09
I think you should just consider yourself free free to ask questions to challenge God along with me. And start making notes. Use this as a space for you for yourself to be like, you know, what, if Anita can say that and ask that then I can probably ask my own questions. And you said,

Dr. James Tyler Robertson 33:24
That'd be fantastic. And that could be another season of who? Never mind because I just heard a really loud cargo off. Oh, and there's the alarm. So again, check the notes to see if he has any resources. Thanks for joining us and we're looking forward to Episode Two. Five See you in the next one. Okay, that's what we're saying. Excellent.

Anita Wing Lee 33:44
Heavenly Minded Earthly Good is the production of Tyndale University. Visit our website for more information.